What the Hell?: Stanford Instant Reaction

All week, ND players and coaches basically apologized for what happened in Miami 2 weeks ago. They swore up and down that this week of preparation went better leading up to a game the Irish had to win to make a New Year’s 6 bowl.

It seems pretty clear they were just trying to convince themselves. The Irish lost to Stanford 38-20 in a game that wasn’t as close as the score indicated. If not for 2 long catch and run TD passes that weren’t earned by ND as much as surrendered by Stanford, this game would’ve been a complete blowout – again.

Obviously, the 4th quarter sequence that saw ND allow 21 points while running one (1) offensive play was the key one. Brandon Wimbush threw a horrendous interception on the first play after Stanford went up 24-20. After they turned that into a score, CJ Sanders fumbled the kickoff. And then another score. What sparked all of it was ND’s failure to capitalize on a Chris Finke punt return to the Stanford 19 with the game tied at 17. Two dumb penalties (a running theme of the evening) ended the drive before it could begin. ND kicked a field goal, their final points.

This leaves ND at 9-3, and as our own Twitter account said, it couldn’t have been a worse 9-3 if you wanted an uneventful offseason for a change. A run of the mill 9-3 in which ND looked like the same team all year could’ve been sold as progress. One in which they roared to an 8-1 start and looked every bit the playoff contender that the #3 ranking said they were followed by a giant crash to Earth… I’m not sure what you sell that as. You can call it progress, but no one really wants to hear it. Everyone will likely head to their camps. They’ll both be right and they’ll both be wrong, just like a year ago at this time.

Brandon Wimbush and Josh Adams haven’t been healthy all month. That much is obvious. The question of why ND has made plenty of effort to tell the fan base otherwise is probably less important, but one that will be asked anyway. Adams was a non-factor today, and Stanford’s defense deserves credit for it, but the burst isn’t there and hasn’t been there for weeks. The difference between him and Wimbush when running the ball was very obvious.

Wimbush, meanwhile, is just plain not good enough when throwing the football. It’s his 3rd year in the program, so it’s an open question how much better he can get in year 4 – and what happens if he doesn’t get a lot better, now that talented teams have made clear they can stifle this offense.

Props to Equanimeous St. Brown for gutting out a good performance today a week after the scary looking injury against Navy.

Next for ND: Probably the Citrus Bowl. LSU maybe. Or Mississippi State. Peachy. (Puns.)

 

By |2018-05-09T22:25:45+00:00November 26th, 2017|18S Reads, Football|155 Comments

155
Leave a Reply

Please Login to comment
25 Comment threads
130 Thread replies
0 Followers
 
Most reacted comment
Hottest comment thread
34 Comment authors
wnterr3dannan14OrlokEric MurtaughCleverScreenName Recent comment authors
newest oldest most voted
herecometheirish
herecometheirish

It’s year 8. No major bowl wins. 2-6 vs Stanford. 2 losses to Navy.

The most accurate predictor of what will happen in the future is what has happened in the past. It’s time to move on.

mpvahalik1
mpvahalik1

You can easily do this the other way….

3 bowl wins – previous three coaches had what, one?

National Title berth

5-3 against USC with the previous two coaches going 0-8

Perspective is a powerful thing

herecometheirish
herecometheirish

He was lucky to come to ND just as Pete Carroll left USC. He hasn’t had to play elite USC teams.

mpvahalik1
mpvahalik1

Didn’t he just blow out a USC team that will be Top 10 come Tuesday competing for another PAC12 title? Obviously not Carroll era USC teams they’re not exactly bad teams.

Clearwall
Clearwall

Yeah, and Auburn was considered a third-rate program at the middle of this season and now they’re possibly the #2 team in the country. Who cares what you do at the beginning of the year. It matters how you finish. Kelly never finishes.

Take a look at his ND career in the second half of the year:
…………. W…..L…..T25
2010……..5…..2…..1
2011……..3…..4…..0
2012……..6…..1…..1
2013……..5…..2…..0
2014……..2…..5…..1
2015……..5…..2…..1
2016……..2…..4…..0
2017……..4…..2…..2
…………..32…22…..6

That’s good for 2% of his wins in the second half of the year coming against T25 competition. In crunchtime, when the committee is watching everything and every conference is playing their marquee games we absolutely piss the bed and destroy ourselves. Not acceptable

Clearwall
Clearwall

So you may be saying “You can only play the games you’re scheduled” and maybe we didnt have the opportunities? Not so, again, by the numbers:
…………# T25 opp
2010……1
2011……2
2012……2
2013……1
2014……4
2015……3
2016……1
2017……4

So if he had gone undefeated every year(not saying he should or can) he would have won 33% of his second half games against T25. That’s pretty damning. You had CHANCES and you didnt cash them in.

herecometheirish
herecometheirish

He’s 2-4 vs. USC teams that finished ranked in the AP poll. Not impressive.

dannan14
dannan14

i’m assuming you mean 2-3? That includes this year. Using AP end of year rankings he beat #19 (2013), and lost to #3 (2016), #6 (2011), and #20 (2014). This year USC will likely finish between #5 and #15. So yeah, that is kinda impressive since ND finished the year ranked behind USC in all 5 seasons (assuming that is true this year as well). Average score of those 5 games is ND 24.2 USC 29.8 That’s going 2-3 against a higher ranked team and keeping the average score differential at one possession. BK has gone 3-0 against USC teams that did not finish the season ranked with an average score of 27.7 to 20.0

There are plenty of things to complain about regarding BK’s tenure as head coach, but performance against USC isn’t one of them.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

The worst part of all of this is getting absolutely pounded by Stanford. They’re our competition, and they’re smothering us. They are what we should be. Their down years equal our good years. We now have to worry about our recruits “getting Stanford offers”, because that becomes a game-changer: why go to the middle-of-nowhere Indiana for a good education when you can go to Palo Alto? The answer *should* be that we’re the better football program, but, well, we’re not. Mostly during Brian Kelly’s watch, we have clearly fallen behind them as the high-academic football power. It’s a bummer.

Oh, and next year is gonna be awful. Weis 2009 all over again, stringing it out while nobody enjoys it.

KG
KG

Just wait until we get Luke Fickel next!

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

I’m genuinely curious why somebody downvoted this. I don’t even think any of this is particularly objectionable or, at least until the last line, even much of an opinion. And, to the extent one objects to that opinion, is that because somebody is actually optimistic about next year? Really?

mpvahalik1
mpvahalik1

Stanford competes for Rose Bowls and PAC12 titles on the regular. ND is no where close to that level of consistency

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

You’re making my point for me. They’ve had all of their Rose Bowl/Pac-12 success while Brian Kelly has been our head coach – which is also when ND has fallen clearly behind Stanford as a program. We were not behind them through the Davie/Willinham/Weis years as a program, and we are now. That’s primarily a testament to Harbaugh and (especially) Shaw, but it’s also a massive stain on Brian Kelly’s record. They *shouldn’t* be the program that they are; we should be the program that they are. But they have much better coaches than we do.

mpvahalik1
mpvahalik1

We weren’t behind them during those eras because they were PAC12 bottom feeders. They hit the jackpot with back to back coaches. Kelly isn’t on their level but he’s better than the trash coaches we had the previous 20 years. I ask again, what coach can we realistically get right now that’s better than Kelly?

Aaron
Aaron

That’s beside the point. We’re not what we could be but blowing things up won’t help, so we’ll remain stuck in 3rd gear until we hire a new HC and ***hope*** for better.

mpvahalik1
mpvahalik1

We’re an incredibly young team that just went 9-3 against an absolutely brutal schedule a year after going 4-8. What more could you possibly want?

King Kenny
King Kenny

What more could we want? To be 10-2 and stop losing to Stanford is a great place to start.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

To not go 4-8.

KG
KG

To not lose to Miami in such a way that their overrated team gets ranked #2. To not get blown out by one of David Smugface Shaw’s worst teams (which is still going to the Pac12CG, but that’s a negative commentary on the Pac12).

KG
KG

Sorry Mrs. Shaw.

Aaron
Aaron

This is a painful truth.

mpvahalik1
mpvahalik1

Stanford’s been a national power in the Harbaugh/Shaw era.

ND hasn’t been close to that since Lou Holtz.

Getting back there takes a special coach.

Kelly’s probably not it but he’s the closest we’ve been in 25 years.

If that program changing coach is out there, he probably isn’t coming to ND

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

Thanks Mrs. Kelly.

mpvahalik1
mpvahalik1

Tell me what coach we’re getting tomorrow that’s better than Kelly… I’ll wait…

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

First, I don’t think we should fire BK this year. I thought we should have fired him last year, but I think it would probably be a mistake optics-wise to fire the coach after a 9-3 season.

Second, Andy’s points are generally correct.

Related to that, third, the “OMG WHO WILL WE HIRE BETTER?!?!!?” objection stops being a good one at some point. We’re probably at this point – we know Brian Kelly is not one of the 15 best coaches in college football and never will be. The school pays Jack Swarbrick and members of the athletic department a lot of money to figure out which young coaches might actually crack that top-15ish list.

Fourth, if Dan Mullen were willing to come to ND, they should just go ahead and fire Kelly tomorrow and damn the optics, because he’s more accomplished than Kelly (given his situation) and is actually one of those top-15 coaches.

mpvahalik1
mpvahalik1

Dan Mullen will probably leave Miss St. and take a better job this year… at which point he’ll be out of reach. If went 6-6 and fired Kelly this year than yeah Mullen would be great… but that door is closing quickly

Clearwall
Clearwall

I disagree. I think this is the PERFECT time to fire Kelly. What’s the major concern with coaching changes? That you’ll lose your top recruits. Well look at who we’ve been bringing in…3 star, 3 star, 3 star. Oh no…im SO WORRIED we wont be able to replace THAT talent. Do it now instead of a year we’re competing for 2-3 5* kids or a bunch of 4s.

gbsk
gbsk

I’ll bite. Chip Kelly (plus a good D coach) if he has not already been hired by UCLA. It is a moot point though since “Laid a Brick” already hired all the assistants for one or two more years. Sigh.

Clearwall
Clearwall

A) he has been hired by UCLA and b) F Chip Kelly

Jaden Holzer

It’s embarrassing tonight to even still be thinking about this game. Wimbush is eye-poppingly bad as a passer, our O-Line didn’t do anything against a bad rush defense, Josh Adams looks like a rusty old car, our safeties are bad again.

Miami hurt a lot and this game is 1000x worse. Every good feeling that BK built up in the first 9 games has been shattered in the last three weeks.

Maybe I’ll be better in a couple days, but I don’t want to think about football again until next August. I’m ready for basketball. Good night to all

Publius2010
Publius2010

Fire Kelly

Anachronism
Anachronism

Not yet. Tom Rees needs a couple more years of seasoning before he’ll be ready for the job.

Publius2010
Publius2010

What a pile of shit. This team has been a shell of its former self all November. It’s 2014 all over again; hopefully we’ll have the balls to finally fire Kelly this time.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

Our current predicament is almost entirely a result of Jack Swarbrick’s giving Kelly an undeserved and unnecessarily long contract extension. I know it’s super frowned-upon to say mean things about Swarbrick on this site, but what exactly has he done that gets him such a positive reputation? I suppose the answer may be the ACC deal, and all the good from that outweighs the rest, but the rest of his career has been (1) giving Weis one more year than he should have; (2) hiring the totally obvious candidate after firing Weis (not saying it was the wrong hire, but it’s not like it required a ton of thought to hire BK at the time); (3) not changing any of our other major coaches; (4) signing a deal with Under Armour immediately before UA went in the tank and lost basically all of its cachet; and then (5) signing BK to an albatross of a contract extension.

Maybe he’s not so great?

Clearwall
Clearwall

I think the non-football side of the house kind of proves Swarbrick is really really good at his job. He just cant seem to get the football side working properly.

kiwifan
kiwifan

Or maybe its just working as well as it can, given everything else that’s piled into the football equation.

The cynic in me says football is the cash cow that keeps feeding the programs the Administration really cares about, as long as the brand sells. When the brand stops selling, maybe they’ll go back to actually prioritizing winning championships and do the things that are necessary to get there.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

I mean, kind of? He hasn’t hired any of our highly successful coaches, right? And it’s not like the basketball team is doing well because of resources he provided – they were way, way late on the practice facility upgrades.

I think the best thing he has done other than the ACC deal was not fire Brey when things were somewhat middling, but I don’t think there was really a huge push to fire him at the time. So, like, not super impressive overall, IMO, particularly when you factor in that godawful contract extension. The only thing that extension has going for it is that it isn’t the worst contract extension handed out by an ND AD ever, but that’s an extremely low bar.

dpet
dpet

I’m just as disappointed as anyone and there were things tonight that I didn’t like but there is something that I think you guys are missing. That is, the back 6 of our schedule was absolutely brutal. Not one soft spot among the 6 and with Navy, who beats you up physically, being the 2nd to last game of the 6, it would be difficult for us not to be gassed right now. I went into tonight expecting to lose because of that

KG
KG

Yes, but I think some of us would be less upset if we’d lost at Miami 41-35, beaten Navy 31-17, and lost to Stanford 38-31. The collapse is way worse than the simple fact of losing.

Publius2010
Publius2010

Amen. This looked like a dominant team for two months, then completely imploded on the final stretch.

Clearwall
Clearwall

Don’t give me the “it’s ok because it was hard” argument.

comment image

kiwifan
kiwifan

This year is eerily like the Willingham year (2002 I think?) when we looked great for much of the season then turned to total crap. That’s how we’ve looked since the second half of Wake Forest.
I was watching Adams closely in the second half. He clearly didn’t belong on the field, yet he still got a number of calls when that was apparent. The coaches did him no favors. Wimbush seems to have lost his confidence not just in passing, but also in pulling the ball and running. He turned indecisive and timid these last few games. Stanford did a good job of pushing our oline around most of the night. I don’t foresee a great NFL career for McGlinchey, sadly.

I’ve rooted for ND since at least 1950, and its the only school I ever wanted to attend. I do not believe we will ever win a championship again in football unless something beyond a mere coaching change occurs. I doubt that will happen. I understand all the ND skeptics in the commentariat class, turns out their skepticism has been proven valid for decades now. We’re the ones who keep getting fooled.

gbsk
gbsk

I don’t think this year was anything like Willingham’s 2002 year. Every game that year was a nailbiter. They had no offense. This year’s team looked dominant except for the GA game, then they fell off a cliff.

kiwifan
kiwifan

yes, we did look dominant for much of this year. Remember when even the ESPN guys were saying ND plays smash-mouth football and will ram it down your throat? They expected us to beat Miami and get to the playoffs without a conference title. Then November happened.

In 2002, we were winning, surprisingly with our QB that year (I’ve forgotten his name and am not motivated to look it up). We were crushing FSU and in the second half we couldn’t do anything right on defense (a la Wake Forest). We won the game but stunk the rest of the year.

That’s the similarity I see, falling apart in the middle of a game in a season we were doing very well, and never regaining form.

Clearwall
Clearwall

Was that Arnaz battle, LoVecchio, or Dillingham?

KG
KG

Carlyle Holliday. (I may have spelled both his first and last names incorrectly)

tlndma
tlndma

He was hurt early in the bowl game and that ended that.

kiwifan
kiwifan

It was Lovecchio the year I’m thinking of.

gbsk
gbsk

Almost all of these games are one score games except for Stanford and Stanford was not any good then. Their one big win was against FSU by 10. FSU was a good team with 4 losses in 2002 but definitely not a great team.
Date Time Opponent# Rank# Site TV Result Attendance
August 31 8:00 p.m. vs. No. 21 Maryland Giants Stadium • East Rutherford, New Jersey (Kickoff Classic) ABC W 22–0 72,903[23]
September 7 12:00 p.m. Purdue No. 23 Notre Dame Stadium • South Bend, Indiana (Shillelagh Trophy) NBC W 24–17 80,795[23]
September 14 1:30 p.m. No. 7 Michigan No. 20 Notre Dame Stadium • South Bend, Indiana (Rivalry) NBC W 25–23 80,795[23]
September 21 3:30 p.m. at Michigan State No. 12 Spartan Stadium • East Lansing, Michigan (Megaphone Trophy) ABC W 21–17 75,182[23]
October 5 1:30 p.m. Stanford No. 9 Notre Dame Stadium • South Bend, Indiana (Legends Trophy) NBC W 31–7 80,795[23]
October 12 1:30 p.m. Pittsburgh No. 8 Notre Dame Stadium • South Bend, Indiana (Rivalry) NBC W 14–6 80,795[23]
October 19 10:00 p.m. at No. 18 Air Force No. 7 Falcon Stadium • Colorado Springs, Colorado ESPN W 21–14 56,409[23]
October 26 12:00 p.m. at No. 11 Florida State No. 6 Doak Campbell Stadium • Tallahassee, Florida ABC W 34–24 84,106[23]
November 2 2:30 p.m. Boston College No. 4 Notre Dame Stadium • South Bend, Indiana (Holy War) NBC L 7–14 80,935[23]
November 9 12:00 p.m. at Navy No. 9 Ravens Stadium • Baltimore (Rivalry) CBS W 30–23 70,260[23]
November 23 1:00 p.m. Rutgers No. 8 Notre Dame Stadium • South Bend, Indiana NBC W 42–0 80,795[23]
November 30 8:00 p.m. at No. 6 USC No. 7 Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum • Los Angeles (Jeweled Shillelagh) ABC L 13–44 91,432[23]
January 1, 2003 12:30 p.m. vs. No. 17 NC State No. 11 Alltel Stadium • Jacksonville, Florida (Gator Bowl) NBC L 6–28 73,491[23]
#Rankings from AP Poll. All times are in Eastern Time.

Anachronism
Anachronism

Kelly isn’t getting fired. It’s fun to say it after a loss like this, but it’s not gonna happen because it would be an idiot move. Firing a coach who goes 9-3 with some quality wins (we’ll always have USC) is stupid unless Nick Saban is already lined up…and he isn’t and never will be.
And so the program is stuck. Kelly is an 8 or 9 win coach who struggles to keep it together down the stretch and loses a lot of big road games. But he’s an 8 or 9 win coach and there’s no realistic hire ND could make that would be obviously better.
I’m not happy about it, but I don’t see an obviously better option out there for the Irish. The most likely outcome, I think, is Kelly just retiring in a year or two.

Clearwall
Clearwall

It’s FUN to say it? I’m not having any f***ing fun right now.

Anachronism
Anachronism

No, you’re not. As you’ve made clear with your emotionally incontinent posts all over this thread.

herecometheirish
herecometheirish

The replacement doesn’t need to be obviously better. Just a decent chance of being better. There are plenty of coaches like that.

Anachronism
Anachronism

Except that they’ll also have a chance of being worse. How many of the coaches who have been or will be fired this year looked like good, solid hires at the time? By my count, it’s quite a few of them.

Publius2010
Publius2010

I mean, just think of the potential downside. The next coach might even go 4-8!

Anachronism
Anachronism

Repeatedly. With no 9 or 10 or 12 win seasons.

hooks orpik
hooks orpik

Last year at this time, this blog did a thoughtful preview of candidates and determined that Mike MacIntyre was the prime candidate for the Notre Dame job. He went 5-7 and though rumored safe, might get fired at Colorado this year. Read the comments, many clamoring for Kelly’s head then and now were on board with MacIntyre. While we’ll never know for sure and everything is a hypothetical, I can’t imagine MacIntyre would have done well here this season, nor have the future looking all that bright.

Other finalists were Willie Taggart (a meh 7-5 in his first year at major job in Oregon), Matt Rhule (1-11 in the debacle known as Baylor) and PJ Fleck (a non-boat rowing 5-7 at Minnesota). If that’s the best ND can do on the new hire front, I think some may be able to understand more the trepidation about the unknown.

https://www.18stripes.com/notre-dame-football-head-coach-search-top-15-brian-kelly-future/

Eric Murtaugh

Yeah, that hasn’t aged……well.

Publius2010
Publius2010

I would take Taggart in a heartbeat. PJ Fleck wouldn’t mesh with ND.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

Fair points above, particularly w/r/t MacIntyre (I’m more inclined to forgive a 1st year coach at a school) but to pick a nit: Taggart is definitely considered a more attractive coaching commodity than Brian Kelly at the moment. Not saying he’s a clear fit at ND, necessarily, but, still, a vast majority of schools would be more interested in Taggart than BK. Florida State, for example, is gearing up to go after him if Jimbo leaves; I suspect BK wouldn’t make their top-5 candidates.

Personally, I’d be more excited about the program right now if Taggart were going into year 2, even if he had gone 7-5 this year with the same team (doubtful, but assuming for the purpose of the exercise), than BK going into Year 9 as is.

mpvahalik1
mpvahalik1

For all calling for Kelly’s head… Realistically, what coach is available that’s A) Better than Kelly and B) willing to coach ND?

Three new coordinators coming off a 4 win season… did you expect ND to compete for a national title immediately? If you did you’re delusional beyond saving

We all knew that back half of the schedule was loaded and getting through unscathed was unlikely.

We were in position to win that game before two back to back turnovers in our own territory to start the fourth

I predicted 8-4 and got 9-3. So I’m happy.

Geaddas
Geaddas

This frustration isn’t about preseason expectations. It’s about exceeding those expectations by a wide margin and then falling flat on our asses the last three games of the year. People aren’t being silly by being upset. The team showed us what they were capable of and then, for whatever reason, couldn’t keep it up. I’m not a knowledgeable enough fan to know where to point the finger, but I know which finger I’m pointing.

KG
KG

THIS. As someone said in the slack, an even 9-3 with steady improvement but coming up short against superior teams? I’d have thought “wow, good job, we’re improving, we made the necessary changes.” But we were clearly WAY improved…which is good….but then dropped off a cliff…which is unexplainable. And this happens way more than we would like. I’m in the “can’t fire the 9-3 coach this year” crowd, but not because I don’t want to, but we’re not Georgia or Auburn. For those that do want him gone, you’ll get your wish next year–there’s at least 5 losses on that schedule, and a beatdown right out of the gate by Michigan. Given what we lose, and what we bring back, I don’t see another 9-3 year from Kelly.

Clearwall
Clearwall

I said it a few weeks ago, there is no “steady improvement.” That’s part of the problem with Kelly. He’s like an Oil and Gas stock on the market….wild volatility. He’ll have a 2015 year with 9 wins then 4. He’ll get 7 wins then 10. We have no true direction. “We should be happy because we were 4-8 last year and now 9-3” That kind of sentiment bans us from actually firing Kelly and moving on and then next year when he goes 6-6 we’ll get the long knives out again but then in 2 years he’ll go 10-2 again. up and down and up and down

Geaddas
Geaddas

Med stocks. They’ll swing +/- 150% in three days.

wnterr3
wnterr3

Really….You’re happy !!!! I really do miss the days when our BoT’s, AD,and fanbase had much higher goals and expectations. ND Football use to have standards and excuses were not tolerated. You either met the standard, or we found someone that would. How great was it that we went into each and every year with REAL championship aspirations. Not ( I hope we get to 9-3). Ah…the good ole’ days !!!!

kiwifan
kiwifan

The good old days were a very different environment in CFB, and the ND administrations had very different attitudes towards who could play at ND.

Something has to change to get back to what you remember. What would you change? IMO a high probability coaching success will not come to ND without some fundamental (but still palatable) changes here.

themann1086
themann1086

Part of me is at the “nuke it from orbit, it’s the only way to be sure” stage, but I know that’s probably counterproductive. I feel like there are nothing but bad options to choose from here.

Can’t wait to get embarrassed in our December bowl game while my sister’s alma mater plays in their 3rd straight playoff!

Irishchamp23
Irishchamp23

Just so people know. Downvoting is not for disagreeing with someone.

Underthrown Shoelace
Underthrown Shoelace

But also reacting to a downvote like someone killed a puppy is also not appropriate. We’re all fired up after that horror house of a 4th quarter. I’m okay with some -1s out there.

Concrete Charlie
Concrete Charlie

To be fair, he was just asking what the hell people could find objectionable about his statement. I don’t think he was whining about it.

tlndma
tlndma

What is the up and down voting for ? Asking for a friend.

KG
KG

I’ve always considered it like flagging as inappropriate. If someone says something so f’ed up that I feel it’s out of bounds, then it gets a downvote. If you disagree, reply and make an argument as to why. Simply downvoting something is lame.

(Come at me, downvoting bros!)

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

I still am looking for an explanation as to why my Stanford laments above are getting downvoted – I want to engage. Do people think that ND is still ahead of Stanford as a program? Do people think next year is going to be fun and great? I genuinely am curious.

To clarify: I think I understand (and arguably deserve) the downvotes on the “Mrs. Kelly” post above. I don’t get them on the original post. But maybe I don’t get what they’re for.

KG
KG

You said something someone perceived as negative and they don’t like it. Simple as that. There’s a certain subset of the fanbase that thinks “fan” = “always positive.” I think they comment less and downvote more.

tlndma
tlndma

Up until your last line, I think you are spot on nd09. I don’t disagree with it, I just haven’t thought about it and don’t want to right now.

tlndma
tlndma

Then what is the up vote for ?

KG
KG

For agreeing. I’m not saying their equal and opposite. Personally, I don’t like having a downvote at all. If you like it and just want to say “what that person said” then like it or upvote it or whatever. If you don’t like it, make a comment and disagree. Downvoting without responding is kind of cowardly. I understand how nd09hls12 feels–if people are disagreeing with you enough to downvote it (and that’s why they are downvoting, not because it’s inappropriate), they should defend that position.

tlndma
tlndma

” I’m not saying their equal and opposite.” Logic says they should be. Most sites I’ve seen, that is exactly what they are. I think you guys that want them to mean something different are fighting a never ending battle.
https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.XibgYLfMbYy5RFwhO2wDZQEsCo&w=299&h=168&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&pid=1.7

KG
KG

Yet it’s funny how the only comments that get downvoted are the ones expressing negatively towards Kelly. I don’t see any comments saying “yeah, I’m happy with the season” getting downvoted. But whatever.

Aaron
Aaron

I wish we were better. We should be, given our overall talent, but deficiencies at QB, DT, and some coaching lapses limited us this year, though I’m not convinced our ceiling is higher than 9 wins.

Next year’s schedule is hard but with the coaching staff gelling more and the juniors & sophomores who will likely/hopefully return, 2018 feels like BK’s best chance to reach a top-10 finish. I hope we do, because 2019 will likely feature another new QB and lots of roster turnover.

KG
KG

No way. We’ll get killed by a mediocre Michigan out of the gate. There’s no top-10 finish without half our offensive line and Josh Adams. Not with Wimbush at QB. Also, how much of our D are we losing? 7-5 would mildly surprise me, because I think we’ll be back in “could randomly lose to Wake” territory, and oh look, Northwestern is on the schedule too. If FSU is back to normal, that’s a loss. Stanford, USC, Va Tech…Navy beats us if we’re not as talented as this year, which we won’t be. Granted I’m painting a worst-case scenario, but my point is that to avoid that, it’s not going to be talent that does it, it will take a great coaching job by the staff. I don’t see that happening. Defense will get somewhat better perhaps. Offense is not going to be good.

kiwifan
kiwifan

What I saw last night was a team that had better players than we have in key positions:

1. Their lines were at least as good as ours, actually better. On D they had a monster nose guard and really good inside LB’s, better than ours. Their Dbacks and safeties were better than ours.
2. Their QB was miles better than ours, as was their tailback. Their receivers were much bigger and better at fighting for the ball than our smaller Dbacks could handle.

I’d also say that their coaching staff is more creative in how they use their players on offense.

Regarding our season, I cannot explain our total beatdown of USC other than Darnold had a lousy day and some of their Dline starters were out. We played pretty well against Georgia, but Fromm was in his first start and looked pretty unimpressive. The rest of our first half schedule was pretty meh. Second half schedule was much tougher and we faded badly.

I expect we’ll do worse next year with some key guys moving on. I don’t expect Wimbush to improve much, as Kelly seems to get in his QB’s head and destroy their confidence. Its the one common denominator that I see in his coaching.

I hope we’ll do better but do not expect it, which is the sane way to approach ND football, IMO.

Aaron
Aaron

Killed by MI? I don’t think so; if our offensive #s were inflated by weaker/weakened competition early on, you can say the exact same thing for their defense. It’s a Week 1 game between imperfect teams — the outcome’s a coinflip. I’m not necessarily confident we’ll win, but we’re both B- teams at the moment with no reason to expect much different next August.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

Their defensive line will destroy our offensive line next year. It’s going to force Wimbush to throw, and we know how that goes.

gbsk
gbsk

If I am not mistaken, UM will get their QB back after he was injured all year. He will most likely be better than Wimbush.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

He actually just announced that he’s transferring, but Peters (the guy who was their third-stringer at the beginning of the year) is better than Wimbush.

IllinIrish20
IllinIrish20

Hot takes from a grumpy fan:

Predicted 9-3. Got 9-3. Not happy about it because this team looks like absolute garbage now.
What happened to the O-Line? I’m not sure they could get a push on UNC Charlotte at this point.
There’s no way we fire a 9-3 coach, but we’ve clearly hit BK’s ceiling. Everyone keeps saying “who would we get,” but I think that’s the wrong question. The question is “who do we have our eyes on next year?” And for that, I’d answer: Dave Clawson, Dan Mullen, Jeff Brohm, Justin Fuente, Mike Norvell, Bronco Mendenhall. (assuming bigger names aren’t interested)
Let’s move on from Wimbush. All the talent in the world, but he’s in his own head, and that’s darn near impossible to fix.
Get a new receiver coach.
Find someone with Georgia roots to recruit D-linemen.
Give Brey whatever he asks for; ND is a basketball school now.

King Kenny
King Kenny

If you fire BK who are you going to replace him with? The big time coaches are scared to come here given how hard it is to win here. Notre Dame will never be a basketball school.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

Irish Bandit: “Everyone keeps saying ‘who would we get,’ but I think that’s the wrong question.”

KK: /rephrases question

wnterr3
wnterr3

I hope that you will Mark and remember those words. I have a feeling that you will have some egg on your face.

KG
KG

“The question is “who do we have our eyes on next year?””

Ah, the entire offseason encapsulated in one question. I agree. We ain’t firing him this year. I’d bet real American currency that we do next year (or that he “retires”) If Jack is as good as we want to believe, we’re already working on the case.

hooks orpik
hooks orpik

It’s funny a lot of my Tech friends are saying similar things about Fuente that we say here about Kelly (and he’s younger, in year 2, etc). Tough to follow a legend in Beamer but the grass always seems greener when it’s someone else’s coach that could hypothetically come over and turn a program around.

This year is a perfect storm for Scott Frost to probably get a UF offer and his alma mater in Nebraska, so he’s probably untouchable for ND due to the timing but that’s a guy who would have interested me a lot. Sadly though, like it or not, the elite “up and comers” like Frost probably don’t have much interest in ND or have better fits elsewhere.

Chris Petersen is certainly worth inquiring about, though I don’t know if he would accept ND either and leave the west coast. If he would, though, that’s an upgrade on Kelly. Not sure if they have the courage to pull the trigger on a coaching change coming off a 9-3 year, though, but it’s nice to dream that the stars could align.

Other than that, not too many of the floated names are inspiring to me. I don’t see a Dave Clawson (52-61) or Bronco Mendenhall or someone like that bringing Notre Dame to playoff level football. Are they bold enough to go with a 36 year old with 1 year of HC experience like Norvell? I tend to doubt that’s a good risk, ND hasn’t seemed to have the best luck with the young, upshot type of coach lately anyways.

kiwifan
kiwifan

I’m curious, KG. Working on the case how? Serious question.

King Kenny
King Kenny

I picked 9-3 when you guys asked for our predictions. I said I would be happy with 9 wins but I lied. I feel disgusted with how we finished the season. This team showed so much promise and to finish like this shows there is still some major issues with this program. I dont know what to say about Wimbush. He isnt getting better like I thought. I dont know if its coaching or if this is just who BW is.

Nothing to do but focus on recruiting. St. Brown is out. He isnt coming here. Hopefully we can flip Houston Griffith and land the LB that just left UNC and is picking between us and the Wolf Pack.

eyerish9299
eyerish9299

It’s coaching… It’s always been coaching. Rees, Golson, Zaire, Kizer, Wimbush. Who has actually gotten even a little better under Kelly? Not. A. Single. One.

Cubfansince1957
Cubfansince1957

I) No way Kelly gets fired this year. 9-3 after going 4-8 (yes, I realize Kelly was the HC for the 4-8 but it’s still a good turnaround) is good enough for his seat to stay relatively cool for now.
2) I also run with the crowd that says; “who do we get that’s better?” After Davie, Willingham and Weis, Kelly pulled the program up from one level to a higher one, albeit not the one we were hoping for. I don’t want us to regress. Yes, eventually Kelly will either retire or be let go. And, at that point, we better not mess up that hire or we will probably not ever recover as a high-level college football program.
3) I wonder how Kelly’s teams always seem to have a “deer-in-the-headlights” look against good teams on the road at night. I am assuming that’s a coaching failure.
4) I agree with whomever said that our two TD’s were more Stanford screwups than great plays by us. We were in a position to win the game (don’t forget that we were leading heading into the 4th quarter) by the skin of our teeth.
5) Almost every year we out-recruit Stanford. And yet, Kelly is 2-6 vs. Stanford. How does that happen? I am assuming that’s a coaching failure.
6) I feel sorry for “More Noise” who flew all the way from Paris (France, I assume, as opposed to Texas) to see this downer of a game.

More Noise
More Noise

HI you all,
Thank you Cubs Fan… I kind of feel sorry for me too, 6,000 miles to see one of the saddest 4th quarters in my memory of a lot of them.
Some gameside reactions:
— our fans at the game were numerous and loud, good for you all;
— EQ showed some real speed on his TD catch and run, Stepherson also; it seemed to me.
— yes, the oline cannot move anybody right now…This one is like Eric said in the preview — a loss that is season and program defining.
— we have been having trouble with tight ends, and we really did tonight.
Sighs……..

kiwifan
kiwifan

I hope you have happier things to look forward to on the flight home, Noise. Its a bummer expecting the trip to have a happy ending and ending up with the result we got, especially the way we got it.

More Noise
More Noise

Merci, Kiwifan. I guess… “we’ll always have Paris.”
It really was a sucky flight back though!

CleverScreenName
CleverScreenName

So sorry it didn’t go as we’d hoped, More Noise, but seeing you on the ESPN “highlights” of the game cheered me up a bit.

comment image

Thanks, again, for the recommendation on ustvnow.com. How it knew that I needed to watch the end of UM-OSU and all of the Iron Bowl but that it suddenly needed to stop working completely at 0100 GMT was simply amazing.

More Noise
More Noise

Ho ho ho, CSN. That’s me all right. Actually, it got worse. I jumped up screaming when Sanders fumbled the runback, and the seat I was on folded back w/o me knowing (I had snuck down to the area for the handicapped folks of which there were none… anyway, when I sat back down… I slammed down to the floor, sitting on my 7-Up cup (full)…

CleverScreenName
CleverScreenName

MERDE!!

Oh, les frondes et les flèches de la fortune scandaleuse!

IrishTexan
IrishTexan

1) I perfectly understand this line of thinking, but happen to disagree. Who knew that all you have to do to succeed is to screw up royally 7 years into your position, which automatically lowers your bar for success in the next (one? Two?) years?
2)until last year, I was a solid proponent of this argument. As I said in Kelly’s first 5 years, he had strung together the longest run of *winning* seasons that the school had seen since holtz. He had reset the floor. He had gotten us back to 8 wins being the bare minimum, which was a level we hadn’t been in a depressingly long time. After he proved that 8 wins was not, in fact, his floor, my assessment of him changed dramatically. We need another step up, to a coach for whom this season is a reasonable average, and 10-11 win seasons regularly attainable, unbeaten if all the pieces fall together.
3)This, to me, is one of the most damning articles against BK. He tends to do somewhat better in big games at home, although there are still stinkers like 2011 USC and 2013 OU in there. Home is also where the other damning factor comes in – inexplicable losses to less talented teams (Navy, USF, Tulsa, Northwestern)
4)The closeness if this game going into 4Q was indeed “smoke and mirrors”
5)Coaching failure indeed
6)Yeah, sorry MoreNoise. That sucks

TimsSon
TimsSon

Kelly wont be fired. Against a decent schedule, 9-3 IS solid. The way it happened though is crushing, again. Losing to good teams. But to be honest, despite all the dominant wins, ND is probably lucky to be 9-3. If NCST or Wake, or any of the others could have forced the game in whole or part on Wimbush’s arm alone, there would have been more losses. Also, Josh Adams was clearly playing hurt since Wake. BK talking all the time about how winning on the road against ranked teams is difficult (or how winning in November is difficult, or just how winning any game in college football is difficult) is troubling. Objectively, ND has had better, comparable, or slightly less talent than most teams it has played under BK, especially since 2012. Stealing a game from a more talented team, or stepping up in big games against ranked teams on the road should be at least a 50/50 thing. At Least! No? Also, ND does recruit talent, and can compete with it despite everything people point to as reasons why ND will never win again (Indiana, tough academics, etc.). 2012, 2015, and even this year are testament to that. So I don’t care for the argument that no good coach will come to ND, and no good talent will come to ND, so ND football is doomed. I think its clear that its not that ND can’t do it, it that BK hasn’t done it, and that the others since Lou couldn’t do it (which probably means ND football has been mismanaged as a program for decades more than anything). BK has got his teams to the edge of being elite. Its his decisions, and inability to get players up, in big games that have kept his road games against ranked teams from being at least 50/50 in recent years. You look around the FBS and you see so many coaches not named Saban/Meyer/Swinney, etc. leading teams with way less talent than ND get their team playing above themselves for big games and stretches of seasons. ND doesn’t need to hire an already big name coach, they need somebody who maximizes the talent they get and has won their share of big games. I am not stoked about the idea, but I believe a guy like Dantonio would compete at ND better than BK. I would find it boring and his mad manner annoying, but he gets his team there, and he wins big games, and he doesn’t need to learn that you only really compete with elite teams through defense and a running game as your base identity. BK might have had a good run if Golson is around in 2013, and he keeps with the Diaco style defense in 2014 not hiring BVG. He might have built a few consecutive seasons of at least 10 win teams, drawing more five stars recruits (like the way it happened with Jaylon) each year, truly building a year to year… Read more »

kiwifan
kiwifan

I think we all feel your pain–its the same as ours 🙂

I do disagree with your take that its just requires the right coach to get us back where we all wish we were, truly among the elite and in the hunt for NC’s most years. Like we used to be in our glory days.
Expecting that ignores what’s happened in college football over the last 25-30 years, including parity (TV, money, access to talent), HOW kids are recruited elsewhere, ever lower academic and disciplinary rigor, attitudes of kids towards small town, Midwest, South Bend as compared to the South and West Coast etc.

When Lou was here, we had different standards than today in the kids we were able to recruit–despite that, ND was still a highly respected academic institution, and we were a powerhouse, elite football program. And the kids we recruited were at least as good representatives of ND as today’s player are.

IMO, Lou would get a bit more out of his teams today than Kelly, but not return us to what we once were.

mlafort1
mlafort1

9-3 against this schedule would be perfectly solid in a vacuum, but in Year 8 after last year we needed to see more than another November collapse to think Kelly can take the program to a playoff. I’m not as down on the program overall as some, the early season success in 2012, 2014, 2015, and this year all makes me think that the right coach could get us there.

So if he’s not leaving after this year (and he isn’t), I like Irish Bandit’s list. Kick the tires on trying to buy a Chris Petersen and if that doesn’t work, find a guy who has over-performed at Power 5 program. Justin Fuente is probably top of that list next season assuming Mullen has already left. I like Mendenhall too. Maybe reunite Dave Clawson with Elko. Maybe not the most exciting hires but they’re all proven at places with fewer resources.

hooks orpik
hooks orpik

In the heat of the moment it’s a brutal loss, not much rationalizing the sting of it.

3 months ago if you told me 9-3, would have made sense. Not as fun as 11-1 but so it goes. Opportunity to finish strong and beat an SEC team to get to double digit wins would be still a respectable year to me. Not much total glory but what else is new.

Not surprised to see potential new head coaches named here but was surprised to see some of the names who probably aren’t even 9-3 coaches..

Wimbush’s lack of progression and growth is very disappointing. Hopefully Jurkovec is the next great ND quarterback, I’m about over BW.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

Sweet Meteor of Death, off the top rope: https://twitter.com/smod4real/status/934648049225277440

tlndma
tlndma

With this running game, O line, and the TE’s and WR’s and then to have a QB that game after game can’t complete 50% of his passes, SCREAMS, something is wrong. After watching the QB situation the last six years you can’t have much faith it will be fixed either. The Kiser/Zaire situation being one of the most obvious coaching FAILS I’ve ever witnessed.
Wimbush has been regressing. He hasn’t been accurate all season but at least he wasn’t turning the ball over. He is now. Teams seem to have figured out the throws he can make and the ones he can’t. I’m not sure Kelly has.

kiwifan
kiwifan

I agree on that Tindma–the whole QB management element has been Kelly’s weakest point–I’d add to your list that its more complete to think of it as the Golson/Zaire/Kiser situation. Golson won 18 of his first 19 games (or close to that) but Kelly destroyed him, then in deciding who to replace him with went with his 3rd best QB, Zaire, who in the end turned out to be awful, before an injury forced Kelly to play Kiser. Even then, going into the next year, Kelly insisted on alternating them until it was obvious even to Kelly that Kiser was better. Then in his final year, Kiser hit a ceiling and never got better.

Given Wimbush’s physical talents and time in the program, he should be MUCH better than he is now. And clearly most of what’s wrong is mental–Herbstreit said several times last night that the kid can make every throw on the field, but his issue is confidence. I even see it in his degraded decision making on when to pull the ball and when to hand it off on the option. He’s a much less confident decision maker now than he was when we were rolling.

You have to have a really efficient QB to win at the elite level. I don’t see Kelly developing that level of performance in his QB’s.

tlndma
tlndma

Tommy Rees bailed out Golson a few times. Golson had warts from the beginning and they never were fixed. Same with Zaire/Kiser. Why would we have faith that Wimbush will be different. As you said, he’s been in the program 3 years.

kiwifan
kiwifan

I haven’t got that faith. Wimbush is cooked, IMO.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

BK has a totally undeserved reputation as a QB guru because he shuffled QBs successfully once at Cincy. You’re 100% right that his QB “coaching” has been his weakest point (other than the fourth quarter of the Northwestern game, which is in its own category of terrible).

Clearwall
Clearwall

Yeah, this is absolutely #^#&&* ridiculous. I’m not even listening to the “well, we were 4-8 last year, we should still be happy with progress.” ^#^# that. This program should look at 9-3 like Stanford does and consider that our DOWN year. Not a reason for optimism. We never should have been 4-8 last year. It was Kelly’s shiite play calling, decision making, @#%ing around that put us in that situation in the first place. 4-8 should be a major indictment of Kelly, not something we point to and say “well at least we’re better than that data point.” No, that’s the shiite you do when you are coming out of Davieweisingham. Not after 8 years of the same program.

I’ve said it before and I’m still on this track, I’m grateful that BK brought us out of the awful years. He’s really helped, as did Weis as well, pull us out of 3-8 and continual non-top 25 finishes. Im happy we’re upset now because we had the CFP in our grasp but pissed it away. I’m glad we’re angry and up in arms over losses to Georgia, Miami and Stanford instead of South Florida, Syracuse, and Tulsa. Dont get me wrong there, but there comes a time when you realize you HAVE to move on. This is that time. Kelly cannot be anything more than just a really solid coach. His schemes and gameplans work at the G5 level and with elite talent like ND can work to beat second tier P5 teams. It is not a system that will win against elite talent. That’s proven now. He never does it and I dont have faith he ever will. Jack, cut the freaking cord already.

Orlok
Orlok

Amen

wnterr3
wnterr3

+100

Irishchamp23
Irishchamp23

I think one reason he won’t be fired now is because the three year commitment to the coordinators were given so that probably means that Jack gives him two years (esp. after an improvement to 9 wins from 4 wins). But what do we think would have to happen next year for Kelly to get fired? Some have thought firing someone after 9 win season is bad optics and would make coaches not want to come but at what point is 9 wins not good enough that you be seen as legitimately firing someone?

Whatever the answer to that question, it seems something more like 10 wins will be necessary for Kelly and co. to keep their jobs. Anything less just seems like spinning wheels, and I’m sympathetic to the “who are we going to get that’s better” camp. At some point though unless 9 wins is what we are hoping for 9 wins is just not enough. I’m one that’s hoping that the stars align with coordinators and talent and recruiting and QB play that we can go on a few year run with Kelly and I think that’s possible. But it’s also more than likely not going to happen because of all sorts of reasons that sometimes seem out Kelly’s control. At that point though you have to try someone else. We may get worse (so perhaps we should appreciate Kelly a little more) but we need to shoot for more than we have been getting.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

I think they need to commit themselves to firing Kelly the Sunday after the second regular season loss next year, whether that is September or November.

I think there might be reason for optimism next year, but (1) the schedule is pretty brutal and (2) our quarterback is pretty brutal. Next year will most likely be another 8-4ish slog, and we’ll find ourselves back here again next November (i.e., he wont have gotten his deserved mid-season firing) because some in the athletic department think 8-4 is pretty good.

kiwifan
kiwifan

They won’t, and shouldn’t fire him at the second loss if that’s in November

hooks orpik
hooks orpik

Totally agree. I get if there’s a 1-2 start, yeah, but if they’re like 7-1 or 8-1 again and go to 7-2/8-2 that’s not a feasible firing that’s going to happen in the real world.

It would be interesting to see what another 8-4/9-3 season in 2018 would bring, though. The optimist in me hopes year 2 with the coordinators will lend some stability and improvement, and the team’s defensive personnel should be overall a little better and more experienced next year (aside from LB). Is that enough for a 10+ win season? Not sure I’d be that bold, but if we can see some QB progress and improvement it could happen. But who knows if we’ll see that.

Looking at the schedule (tough games Mich, Stanford, @Va Tech, FSU, @USC) it probably is going to be a 2-4 loss season, on paper no matter who the coach is, given expected rosters. At last 9+ months out and on paper.

KG
KG

Northwestern is a 9-3 team this year, it’s at their place, and Fitz HATES ND. If we’re not a top 15 team, we will lose that game.

We should also hope that Niumatalolo takes another job.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

Oh, he can’t survive another 3 loss season without at least making the playoffs at some point before doing so, right? I mean, come on. Another 9-3 season (so, 2-3 against those 5 you called out) would be a boring disappointment, after an exciting disappointment, after a horrid season that should have cost him his job, after an exciting disappointment, after a boring eh season.

At that point, it will be time.

hooks orpik
hooks orpik

Depends on context, but the assumption that he would/should be fired after a second loss next season, even if that loss occurs in November is wild and inaccurate and thankfully not going to happen in the real world was my main takeaway.

I could see moving on if they slump again and end up 9-3, but IMO it’s not open and shut. Depends on how things play out, injuries, and all the other little factors to determine the forward looking outlook for the team. You call this year an “exciting disappointment” yet there’s a chance for a double-digit win season and beating a decent SEC team in a bowl game. That’s not terribly disappointing to me, even if elements of this season certainly were disappointing.

Not many considered 2017 team to be a playoff team anyways, so I’m not sure what the standard to meet really is, just seems like ND fans like to bitch when ND loses and someone has to hold the bag and take the blame.

Irishchamp23
Irishchamp23

I think we talked about this last year but does it really help to fire Kelly early? I think we said it might help get a jump on hiring but I’m sure some time in November might be sufficient.

At any rate, you think 10-2 isn’t good enough even with a difficult schedule?

I would think if we were worried about the optics of firing a coach with a high win total (the worry again is that other coaches would not want to go there as much) then firing a 10-2 coach would be pretty outrageous. I understand the desire to “just move on.” And if Kelly goes 8-4 then it won’t be much of an issue but 10-2? I’d think 9-3 could go either way (of what would happen) and so 10-2 I’d figure would be a lock. If we had our fourth loss by FSU (nov 10) then sure go ahead and fire him.

Irishchamp23
Irishchamp23

What is our bowl situation now? Where do we go as a 9-3 team and who might we play?

IrishTexan
IrishTexan

ESPN says Citrus Bowl against Miss St right now, but honestly what does it matter? A win or a loss in a mid-tier bowl game doesn’t move the needle on BK one bit. Coachocinco +/- 1 game. Winning last night and winning the Cotton Bowl was a way for him to really change the narrative. After Miami I had little faith that would happen, and it didn’t.

Irishchamp23
Irishchamp23

Well I think it would move the needle if it is a loss. A win keeps Kelly afloat. Another loss to a top 25 team on a neutral field puts another nail in his coffin.

Publius2010
Publius2010

At this point, who gives a shit?

Valpodoc
Valpodoc

Has Wimbush improved during the season? If not why? Is that Rees/Kelly/Long or Brandon?

herecometheirish
herecometheirish

Has any QB ever improved under Kelly? No. So that also answers your question about who bears the blame.

hooks orpik
hooks orpik

I’m not sure how much credit Kelly deserves but Kizer was what 1 for 5 in a spring game and I remember he skipped a ball in front of a receiver and he became a high NFL draft pick and starting QB (ok, yeah for the Browns)…As Kizer admitted, he considered dropping football for baseball but eventually grew into a stud QB.

So it’s not fair or accurate to say no QB has ever improved “under Kelly”. Also the fact Jimbo Fisher who churns out 1st round QB draft picks couldn’t get anything out of Golson and Zaire was forgettable at UF shows it’s probably more on those players than Kelly. At the same time, it’s not like Kelly single-handedly crafted Kizer into a stud, either, so like I said I’m not sure how much credit/blame the HC actually deserves aside from being the guy where the buck stops.

The next natural question is why ND can’t find, recruit or keep better QB’s but I suppose if it were easy to identify which high schoolers would be solid improvers that everyone would do it.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

Mike Sanford developed Kizer that summer (Kelly was busy making Zaire not good). Once BK got his hands on Kizer, he didn’t improve much.

hooks orpik
hooks orpik

Oh is that the narrative on that one? Not sure I’m buying that given Kizer’s improvements made once thrust into the starting job. Just seems a little too rabble, rabble anything bad is Kelly’s fault, anything good is someone else’s credit for my taste.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

Kelly coaches the QB1, and the QB coaches coach the other guys. That is how it always has been, other than 2012 and 2016 where there wasn’t a clear QB1 (well, at least in 2016 BK for some reason thought there wasn’t a clear QB1).

hooks orpik
hooks orpik

I understand the delineation, my question was more to the lack of credit given for Kizer’s development in overall play from Week 2 2015 to the end of the 2016 season, which unarguably was there. If only naturally from experience that has nothing to do with Kelly (another point I made), Kizer became a much better QB as time went on.

KG
KG

Apparently someone dislikes your use of facts that Kelly himself has explained on how the coaching for the QBs works. How dare you.

hooks orpik
hooks orpik

‘Twasn’t me, btw, but I doubt it’s the fact about how the coaching staff works and perhaps more the suggestion that Mike Sanford alone deserves the credit from making Kizer from a raw prospect to a 2nd round pick. It’s a bit silly not to be able and acknowledge Kizer naturally progressed as starting QB, while technically under Kelly.

IrishTexan
IrishTexan

QBs historically perform best when they’ve had the least coaching from BK

Valpodoc
Valpodoc

Was Kelly doing the coaching this year? I thought he was in his office doing yoga.

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

Pete Sampson, before the 4th quarter last night: https://twitter.com/PeteSampson_/status/934628612023578624

Pete Sampson, today: https://twitter.com/PeteSampson_/status/934956303079714816

There was a skeptical comment when I made a joke about the ND captive media in the chat last night, but that’s what captive media looks like. If that is not being a tool, it is tool-like.

KG
KG

That Kelsey Brickl reply hits the nail on the head.

“”I’m offering 9-3, but it’s going to look for a long while like 11-1. Then you’re going to watch a pitiful nail-biter against Navy, an absolute stomping and tooth-kicking by Miami, and a structural collapse against a pretty crappy Stanford. But it’s 9-3. You buying?”

nd09hls12
nd09hls12

Another reply: “Divorce yourself from last night for a minute and hop into my 2010 time machine. I’m offering an average of 8.5 wins and 4.5 losses each year, no major bowl wins, and NCAA violations. You buying?”

When you put it like that, it’s a little nuts that BK is the coach 8(!) years later.

Also, look at Sampson’s pathetic tweets in the replies. He’s not being paid by the school! It’s crazy! Apparently last year he said BK needed 10 wins this season or ND needed to move on, which he is (unsurprisingly) backtracking on, because, again, tool-like.

hooks orpik
hooks orpik

9-3 was the pretty much the conventional wisdom of the crowd for this season in the beginning, not sure why that’s an issue to remind that. Vegas had the over/under at 7.5 wins, and 58% of the writers on this website believed the team would be 8-4 or worse.

With a better 4thQ last year, they go to 10-2 and outperform most reasonable expectations. They failed in that regard, but on a day like today a little context that this wasn’t truly a disappointing team, they’re right about where most expected, it’s just disappointing not to exceed expectations when the opportunity was there.

I’d take 9-3 in August, easily. Not “happily” but some here were bracing for 6, 7 or 8 wins.

https://www.18stripes.com/5828-2/

https://www.18stripes.com/super-official-18s-season-predictions/

Publius2010
Publius2010

Could have, would have, should have. Goodwill is perilously low after a 4-8 season. We’re past the point of excuses.

IrishTexan
IrishTexan

When you have a team that looks like they can win out, sitting at 8-1 in November, because they have been winning in dominant fashion against solid if not great competetion, and they completely collapse down the stretch, *again*, fail to win the games that matter *again*, and show regression of QB play *again*, I think you can’t look at 9-3 in a vacuum and say, “well, it’s what we expected”