Well… Brian Kelly found his new offensive line coach, and it’s not a name that’s going to excite a lot of people. Jeff Quinn, who has a long history with Kelly, was promoted from offensive analyst to fill the position vacated by Harry Hiestand. Notre Dame officially announced the hire via Twitter today.
Jeff Quinn has been promoted to Offensive Line coach for the Irish.
More: https://t.co/nwUe4YVjif#GoIrish ☘ pic.twitter.com/atTQsxLluj
— Notre Dame Football (@NDFootball) January 23, 2018
Profiling Quinn
Quinn was Kelly’s offensive coordinator and offensive line coach for 20 years across three schools:
- 1989-2003 at Grand Valley State
- 2004-2006 at Central Michigan
- 2007-2009 at Cincinnati
Kelly offered him the OC position at Notre Dame in 2010, but Quinn elected to take the Buffalo head job instead. He posted a 20-36 record at Buffalo in four-plus seasons before being dismissed, at which point Kelly brought him to Notre Dame as an analyst. He had also served as an assistant strength coach for the Irish over the last two seasons.
Quinn doesn’t have a reputation as a great recruiter, and reportedly can be a bit ornery. However, you could’ve said the same about Hiestand, so I’m not sure that merits automatic disqualification. As far as production, he did turn out four draft picks at Central Michigan, including first-rounder and six-time Pro Bowl selection Joe Staley. He also was instrumental in the development of 2017 All-Pro Jason Kelce at Cincinnati, although Kelce’s final season came under Don Mahoney on Butch Jones’s staff.
My reaction is decidedly meh on this hire. I’ll openly admit my disappointment, as I thought there were a number of other more inspired – and inspiring – choices out there. However, if you’re inclined to look for a silver lining here… After a lot of upheaval the last couple of offseasons, this is a guy Kelly knows well and who has been around the program and the other assistants for quite some time. If there’s a position coach who can afford to be a so-so recruiter, it’s the OL coach. Perhaps with all the other change Kelly placed a premium on stability and chemistry for this hire.
I’d also add that Kelly reportedly sought the input of current players, particularly impending fifth-year seniors Sam Mustipher and Alex Bars. I doubt they swayed the decision substantially, but there’s a good chance they were involved and maybe even supported this move. So there’s that (maybe).
The Other Candidates
The other finalists were reportedly Boston College OL coach Justin Frye, Wisconsin LB coach (and long-time OL coach) Bob Bostad, and Indianapolis Colts OL coach Joe Gilbert. I don’t know how close Kelly was to hiring any of them; the only guy who had any rumored buzz was Frye, but it was just rumor. Even so, Quinn would’ve been my fourth guess out of this group. Much of Kelly’s Notre Dame legacy rides on how this hire will work out, which I’m sure he’s aware of. It’s a very interesting move indeed.
So the big concern here is nepotism?
I think the big concern is big program experience and ability to recruit. All of the other reported candidates had several years of experience at power 5 programs and were known as very good recruiters. Quinn has neither. I have to say that I am right there with Brendan on this hire. He would have been my fourth choice. However, a lot of that is based on what I have heard and read from people like Brendan and very little on my knowledge of the actual candidates (other than their resumes). I (of course) do not know any of these guys, do not know how they interviewed, or even exactly what Kelly was looking for with this hire. I recall not being at all impressed when ND hired Harry based on his resume but being thrilled when they hired Tenuta and BVG (and, to be fair, Elko). I was 1/4 on those hires, so there’s that.
The bottom line is that Kelly is in charge of the program and he’s the one who will get bounced if it doesn’t work out and who will receive the accolades if it does. Nothing much more we can do than wish Quinn the best and hope it turns into a great hire.
Give yourself credit. You were 2/4. Elko was still a great hire, even with the early departure. He changed the culture of the defense in one season and installed a system that we believe to be sustainable and improvable.
Still, your point stands. I’m also “meh” here. Like you, I was crazy about Tenuta and optimistic about BVG. It seems looking back at fan reaction to a lot of assistant hires over the decade or so, we’re wrong more often than we’re right. That’s what gives me some optimism here.
I mean hell, the guy was once offered the OC position. If he even remotely deserved that opportunity at the time, there has to be some value here adding him to the on-field staff as OL coach. Plus, his OLs paved the way for some pretty good offenses – even if not at major programs.
The “this guy was once under consideration for OC” point loses a lot of its oomph when you consider that the dude has been on staff for years now and it appears that nobody else has wanted to hire him for a position coach, much less a coordinator spot.
On its face, this is whatever the opposite of a home-run hire is.
The better argument in favor of this is that BK should be able to hire whoever he wants and sink or swim on his own terms. That’s fair enough, I suppose, but it seemed like he was partially stripped of 100% hiring authority after 2016, to the program’s benefit. And this seems like a pre-2016 Kelly hire.
Though, fwiw, I ventured over to TOS, and the third-hand rumors there are that BK was hamstrung and not allowed to offer other coaches enough money to hire them by the administration. I’m inclined to believe that at least what they are hearing isn’t completely made up by them at least, as that doesn’t fit their “BK is 100% incompetent and a nepotist” inclinations at all.
On the other hand, why offer Elko a salary bump and then not do the same for o-line?
Their third-hand rumors are about as valuable as used toilet paper.
We gave Chip Long a three-year guaranteed contract. We gave Elko a three-year guaranteed contract at three times what he was making at Wake Forest. We offered Elko a 50% raise one year into that contract. We offered Hiestand, who was already compensated pretty well, a raise to try to keep him. But we’re suddenly too cheap to hire a guy away from BOSTON FREAKING COLLEGE?
Please.
Agreed. That on its own doesn’t make much sense.
The simplest explanation is Kelly liked Quinn for the job more than those he interviewed for it. That doesn’t necessarily mean Kelly is correct in his decision but beyond that a financial explanation doesn’t fit.
I’ve noticed that once in a while you hear something so ridiculous that you grit your teeth a bit and bring some swag to your comments……and, to be honest, it’s awesome. This has been one of those times haha
Get it, son.
Ha ha, thanks man. It’s my inner Irishman coming out.
I think you buy into conspiracy theories too easily.
What I meant by the sentence at the end was that it sounds fishy. My point about the commentariat there is that this is not a theory that fits their priors, so I suspect *they* aren’t making it up (but somebody else maybe is, or there was a bad game of telephone).
Their hatred of Kelly is exceeded only by their hatred of Swarbrick et al.
I don’t think they make all that much up, honestly. I do think they latch onto any crackpot theory or clickbait rumor they find that fits their dual narrative of “Kelly sucks” and “the admin doesn’t care about winning.”
But, Brendan, all of their theories and speculation are based on inside information from “top sources within the program that I cannot disclose due to my journalistic integrity”
TOP. MEN.
I tried to post the gif of this scene, because it’s exactly what I had in mind, but I got confused about posting gifs.
It’s really fun reading the theories about how Savvy Jack is complicit in the horrible case of the gymnastics doctor because he was outside counsel to USA Gymnastics. “He Knew!!!”
What a bunch of absolute losers.
I believe the term you’re looking for is “sacrifice bunt hire”
I think the opposite of a home run would be grounding into a triple play.
A sacrifice bunt isn’t a negative play.
*puts on NDN hat*
This is a classic Kelly hire and, by definition, is destined to fail which leads to Kelly being fired by the end of the season. Thus, this is the quintessence of a sacrifice bunt hire.
Exactly, Juicebox. I’m not sure why everyone is up in arms that Kelly didn’t mak some sexy hire (not to mention, we’re talking OL coaches, so I’m not even sure what a sexy hire looks like). Keeping with the baseball analogy, find me a manager who thinks this is a good game plan: “Ok, let’s try and hit a home run every single at bat.”
Perfectly executed sacrifice bunts can and have won many games. Similarly, many games have been lost because some super star never learned the basics of bunting.
Sacrifice bunt – a technique used in certain situations that, when executed properly can be very effective. It has a purpose and, if done correctly, it works every time – it is indefensible. And it’s certainly not some indication that a team has lost its drive to win and is throwing in the towel (which is what people seem to be likening the Quinn hire to). In fact, it’s the opposite – it’s a sign that the team is doing what it takes to win.
If that’s what the Quinn hire is, I’ll take it.
More like a burnt sacrifice hire
How do you know that “nobody else has wanted to hire him for a position coach, much less a coordinator spot”?
Having read that interview with his former player at GVS (Brendan posted it), it sounds like he’s one hell of a coach and probably WAS sought after. My guess is that he simply hasn’t wanted to go anywhere else because the plan was always to move into a position coach role at ND – I think that’s the whole reason he took the analyst position to begin with. I think (a) Kelly hired him because he saw the value in him, knew that he wouldn’t last on the market too long, and hired him as an analyst with the understanding that he wanted him on the staff at some point; and (b) Quinn agreed because he wanted to work with Kelly but knew he would have to wait for some amount of time to get a spot because he had already passed up the opportunity years earlier when he went to Buffalo.
d’oh! replied to the wrong post. see below for witticism
I would have had Quinn fifth on that list of 4. He may turn out to be a great coach. I think Hiestand exceeded expectations, but even then people were critical. The problem is the nepotism, and the fan base reaction. Quinn starts off in a no win situation. First, he is Kelly’s friend. Second, no matter what the OL production will not be as good next year. They won the award for best OL. Not going to repeat that. Third, because of the first issue, he will get no slack on the second issue. The first time we don’t run for 150 yards, which will be Michigan in all likelihood, the fan base will be in apoplexy. I was hoping to avoid negativity.
Promoting Lea was a good choice. Risky, but good. Joseph seems an excellent choice for safeties.
To be considered a good choice, Quinn will have to get that camel through the eye of a needle.
I think one of the arguments TOS has against Kelly that actually holds some water is his reluctance to go outside of the people he’s known and worked with for a long time. When he’s looking for a hire, he looks first to his own coaching tree (which is more of a trunk).
I am sure most people prefer direct familiarity, and if not, indirect. That is true in any hiring process. It is one of the biases that must always be overcome.
there is a lot of reasons why Quinn makes sense. Lots of OL experience. Knows Kelly. Has been at ND for three years. Knows the players, knows the scheme. He was grossly overqualified to be an analyst.
I just did not want to deal with the negativity in the fanbase, and while it is centered on TOS it is more than that, to Kelly. The first time Bars holds someone or Kramer jumps offside or they screw up a blitz pick-up, it will be taken as evidence that Kelly is incompetent and needs to be fired or that Swabrick wants us in the ACC immediately or some other nonsense.
I want Quinn to be successful. I want to win an NC. To do that we need a strong OL.
I think that argument is very, very badly overblown. Two supporting points:
– Martin, Denbrock, Elston, Diaco, Hinton, Molnar, Longo, Gilmore, VanGorder vs. Alford, Cooks, Warriner, Elliott, Booker, Hiestand, LaFleur, Sanford, Denson, Lyght. Pre-2016 offseason, that’s 10 ND hires from outside his tree versus 9 from inside. If you count the moves since last offseason as well, you can add Long, Elko, Lea (x2), Alexander, Polian, Joseph, and Balis to the outside list and Rees (sort of) and Quinn to the inside list, to bring it to 18-11.
– Every. Single. Coach. In. Football. hires people he knows. Every one. The fact that Kelly came into 2016 having made about half his hires from inside his tree is completely normal.
To me that argument is a different way of expressing their frustration that we hired a head coach from a second-tier school like Cincinnati (or Minnesota, or Missouri, or Northwestern, or Boston College – take a guess who came from those schools) instead of Bob Stoops, who NEVER engaged in nepotism. Except, you know, the dictionary definition of it when he booted Brent Venables to hire his brother as DC.
But anyone he has worked with before is automatically small-timey, for having worked for him. So every time he hires someone he’s worked with, he is objectively hiring a small-timey coach who is under qualified to coach at ND.
I agree completely with your second point. Even those he didn’t know personally, he knew by reputation and presumably interviewed and got comfortable with.
I also agree that you almost always hire coaches from that tier of schools. Peer school coaches rarely jump to another peer school.
There are very good arguments for Quinn being a good hire, and time will tell. I hope he is. I don’t buy all the conspiracy crap about money on TOS. While I recognize that the ringleaders on TOS will not be happy until Kelly, Swarbrick, Jenkins and the entire BOT are completely replaced and a hybrid cloned Knute, Frank, Ara and Lou is the head coach, every recruit is a 5* and we are winning every game 56-0, I would have felt better had Kelly gone one more time a little further from his comfort zone.
Totally agree. I’m not sure why Kelly gets so much sh!t for hiring people he’s worked with and succeeded with before. Seems like a smart thing to do.
Gotta wonder whether Quinn wasn’t Kelly’s succession plan anyhow. Kelly wanted Quinn on the staff and Quinn took the Buff. job instead, right? When he became available again, and Kelly hired him as an analyst I remember reading that this was a common college head coach thing to do – if there’s a great coach out there and you don’t have room for him, hire him as an analyst until a spot opens up so he doesn’t end up going somewhere else. Saban does it all the time (right? or am I misremembering stuff). And HH was clear with Kelly that he was eventually going to go back to the NFL. So, it sounds to me like Kelly grabbed Quinn when he could, hid him from everyone else by hiring him as an analyst (because I’ll lay dollars to donuts that there were plenty of teams that were interested in him as an OL coach or even OC), and waited until HH was ready to go.
I don’t know the details, but apparently ISD mods said Quinn turned down coaching offers while he was an analyst at ND. I don’t know anything other than connecting some dots, but I do think it’s very possible that Quinn was always the contingency plan for Hiestand.
And you’re right, Saban does do it. He hired Sark as an analyst and promoted him when Kiffin left for FAU, and he’s reportedly interested in Hugh Freeze as an analyst (and potential future OC) this offseason.
I am inclined to agree he was always the contingency plan for HH. He is certainly qualified for the job, and I have never bought the small-timey argument. Football is football. Arguably, a small-timey team that knocks off, or better, regularly knocks of a team with better players and resources is likely very well coached. thus, as I said below, the lack of NFL OL for Frye, and even Quinn when compared to HH, is not necessarily an inability to coach.
Saban does it all the time. My assumption is we were paying Quinn pretty close to the salary a coach would actually get.
My only problem with the hire is the ‘nepotism’ thing. I do think there is an advantage to synthesizing different approaches and backgrounds. We won’t get that here, but it probably won’t matter.
It’s the Kelly coaching twig.
What the…
https://247sports.com/college/notre-dame/Article/Familiar-Face-Kelly-promotes-Quinn-to-replace-Hiestand-114111696
“Quinn rounds out an eclectic offensive staff of coordinator/tight ends coach Chip Long, running backs Autry Denson, wide receivers DelVaughn Alexander and quarterback Tommy Rees.”
Hmm. Well. Those are sure some guys.
Bet there’s players on the team who couldn’t even recognize DelVaughn Alexander.
What? Why?
Trying to be funny that he’s low key and no one really knows anything about him.
Now it’s not funny, Rappong!
Well, along the lines of guys with two first names, we know he is a rare exception whose name goes first-last-first. It’s easy to be confused by who he really is.
Why can the OL coach afford to be a so-so recruiter?
Hiestand was a so-so recruiter, at least in the typical sense of the role. The position recruits itself to a degree, so having a recruiting personality in the role isn’t as important as it is at other positions.
OT, but are we gonna talk about the report that BK interviewed with the Bears? Is anyone surprised? What percentage of the fan base wishes he’d been hired? Does this signal that he “wants out” as I’ve seen reported? As for me, it doesn’t really inspire any strong emotions.
Meh, if an actual source confirms it I’ll be more interested. Until then, I think it’s more likely he talked to the Bears about Hiestand and somebody’s friend of a friend told a random twitter account that “Kelly was talking to the Bears.”
I didn’t know it was so thinly sourced. I mean it was in a 247 headline.
A Bears guy for 247 put up a clickbait post. The “report,” such as it is, came from a fantasy football site that says “a source” told them the Bears interviewed Kelly. That’s the entire substance of the original report. The 247 guy extrapolated that into “Kelly is looking to leave again.”
It’s garbage. FootballScoop, ESPN, the Chicago Trib, etc. all reported everyone the Bears interviewed as the process unfolded – but somehow a *fantasy football* site gets this scoop two weeks after they hire Matt Nagy? Plus there were eight head coach openings this offseason and not one had even a rumor of a hint of interest in a college coach. College coaches weren’t on any NFL team’s radar this cycle.
But that guy boosted his click count for the week, so he’s happy.
Click the link, you’ll see heir source is a random twitter account. 247 did absolutely no independent verification. It’s silly.
Why fret about what I assume is a rumor from Kelly’s agent trying to keep his stock up?
Yeah, the idea that an NFL team is interested in Brian Kelly for head coach is laughable at this point.
Have you seen some of the retreads and reaches NFL teams have hired in recent years? He’s pretty darned accomplished compared to some of them. Then again, I would have once put Doug Marrone in that category and look what he just did with no QB whatsoever.
I don’t think any NFL team is particularly interested in any college coach. Was the last true college coach hired to the pros Chip Kelly? Steve Spurrier before that? Neither worked well. NFL teams basically report who interviews, and I can’t recall a single college coach’s name surfacing in the last couple of years. NFL teams are also lemmings. If ‘true’ college coaches fail a couple of times, nobody will go back to that well. Bill O’Brien and Pete Carroll were pro coaches who dipped down into college so I would draw a significant distinction between them and Brian Kelly.
I think the game and the demands are so different these days that a college coach is just completely unprepared for the NFL.
Forgetting Harbaugh, and Doug Marrone also was a college HC for a few years before going to the NFL (but most of his career was in the NFL). But yes, that point generally stands, and is part of why no NFL team would be remotely interested in Kelly. The other point is, to the extent that an NFL team were to hire a college coach – which, again, few are – Kelly certainly wouldn’t be in the first ten on the list, and maybe not the first twenty. He’s not a particularly attractive coach right now. If he were fired today and were on the open market for the next year, he would be a legitimate candidate for the Kevin Sumlin level of job after this season – i.e., something like Arizona or Washington State. Nothing better than that, and certainly not an NFL head coaching job.
Forgot about Ol’ Khaki Pants. I think Marrone is more in the O’Brien mold, but I didn’t know he coached in college.
“Forgot about Ol’ Khaki Pants.”
Don’t worry about it. We’ll cut you some slacks.
Bravo. How long did it take you to iron out that reply?
What are you INSEAMuating ?
It came to me immediately, so I didn’t waist any time posting it.
Whoever is downvoting these needs to let his belt out a bit.
I am proudly down voting puns!
I’m going to cuff you around ears for your insolence!
Ha – good job owning it!
I spent way too long trying to figure out the pun in your sentence. No downvote for you, sir.
Upvote for owning it. Now start laughing at my horrible jokes!
This looks better than a BVG hire. But not by much.
I have trouble understanding Quinn over Frye, but not knowing who interviewed, it’s hard to say that we had better choices.
According to Sampson (nd09’s link in the comment above), Frye did interview:
“Sources told Irish Illustrated that Justin Frye (Boston College), Joe Gilbert (formerly of the Indianapolis Colts) and Bob Bostad (Wisconsin) all interviewed for the position”
I mean I guess if Kelly liked Quinn more than those guys, so be it. His program and all and most think he’s closer to the end than the beginning so I’m not really able to get too worked up about an uninspiring hire as the o-line coach who might only be in the picture for a couple years anyways. Agree with what Coyote said above, it’s tough to know much more without being in the interview room and seeing the rationale behind it.
Hopefully Hiestand’s lessons don’t wear off immediately and next year’s line will have two 5th year guys and a ton of talent so as far as position groups go, I’m not all that concerned about them overall compared with the other questions about personnel on the other offensive units.
Wait, are we actually disappointed we didn’t get Boston College’s offensive line coach? The Boston College who was one of the most boring offensive teams in College Football history before this year?
Meh, as long as the O Line recruiting doesn’t fall off a ton, I’m not too disappointed. This is a guy who has been an OC and head coach at the FBS level. I doubt there are many O Line coaches out there with that level of experience.
Kelly just can’t help himself. Had to go dip in the buddy pool again. I was hoping the team went in a different direction. I don’t know much about Quinn other than he and BK go way back. I just hope he can recruit.
You’d have to think Long had some say in this as well. Sometimes it’s not just the “buddy pool.” Sometimes it’s about finding a position coach that meshes with a coordinator’s philosophy. That’s what I’m hoping happened here since Long has worked with Quinn over the last year. For that matter, so have the players. BK and CL know how Quinn works with the players. Even with the resumes and reputations of the other candidates, they’d be coming in blind.
Is that right? I’m under the impression that analysts are not allowed to coach the players.
Yea I don’t think they can – at least on the field. Though I don’t know if that rules out interacting with players off the field. I can’t imagine that is outlawed.
He was involved in strength and conditioning program, as well, if I heard correctly. He’s had some contact with them. He’s probably sat in plenty of meeting rooms, too. Heck, there are pictures of him floating around out there of him in ND gear on the practice field. He’s no stranger to the players.
He couldn’t coach them on the field. He could do anything off-field, including running film review, participating in meetings, and being in the booth and on the headset during games (the NCAA might change that last part soon). I actually think his addition of the “assistant S&C coach” role in 2016 was just a way to get him into more contact with the players than the analyst title allows. Plus, football staffers aren’t allowed to work with kids in the summer but S&C staffers are.
Is he primarily a man or zone blocking guy? Maybe the other guys didn’t match the style that Chip wants to run.
He’s done both. Any decent OL coach will be able to teach any style of blocking, so I doubt that was a major part of the decision on anyone.
You might hear a lot about his zone blocking schemes at Cincy and Central Michigan. Grand Valley ran a power offense, though, with a lot of pulling and drive blocking.
Yeah, but don’t almost all of them have a primary technique? And it would be a huge factor for me if my offense necessitated one or the other. I don’t want a guy who is great at coaching zone, and OK at coaching man, coming in if the offense is entirely geared around man blocking.
I guess they would typically have one style they teach more than another, but I don’t get the sense that the actual blocking technique is so different that there would be a substantial gap in a guy’s ability to coach one versus the other. I think the difference comes more in how you decide to apply the technique (hat on hat vs. an area) than in the technique itself.
But I’m not an OL coach, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. So I could be completely wrong.
I always thought it was pretty different. I played OL in HS (and at ND!), we were straight man, and from everything I have seen, zone blocking looks pretty different. But, I have never actually learned the actual OL technique, as opposed to scheme/theory.
Part of my thinking is that it seems like teams tend to switch zone/man depending on OL coach, more than I’ve heard of an OL coach switching zone/man. But how many times outside of a team you follow super closely, would you ever hear about an OL coach changes blocking style.
I got a chuckle out of your last line. You’re right, and you could apply that to a lot of stuff – “coaches leaving only happens to us,” “players transferring/flaming out only happens to us,” etc.
Didn’t know you played OL, that obviously is a big factor. I might be misusing technique too – I’m talking about the act of getting your hands on another person and moving him to where you want him to go. I would imagine that doesn’t change too much whether you’re blocking an area or a guy – it’s still punch, hand placement, leverage, etc. But like I said, I don’t really know what I’m talking about. 🙂
Quinn has definitely taught both. I don’t know what he did at Buffalo, but Grand Valley was a power spread with man blocking.
Honestly, I know almost nothing about the technique for zone. But I do believe the footwork is very different. It wouldn’t surprise me if hand placement is also different. I believe the physical profile tends to be more athletic, not sure if that makes any difference in how you would coach.
Even within certain types of blocks there is pretty different technique, and I had one coach who was awful at teaching scoop blocks, another who was quite good (or maybe the difference between me at 14 and 17 was enough I was just naturally better so it seemed like the coaching was better).
How much do you think this depends on the particular running backs on the team. Meaning, do the offensive coordinator, OL coach, and HC get together and say: “well so and so has amazing vision, great cut-back ability, and is really creative, so let’s be more zone oriented” or “this year, our guy is big and powerful and runs people over, let’s go more power run”?
I don’t think they would ever make changes on that level based on a RB. No RB is that important.
Makes sense. Thanks.
Regardless of how easy it is for an OL coach to switch between zone/man schemes, JB still makes a good point. Being in sync philosophically with the OC is a consideration. It doesn’t even have to be as significant as matching styles exactly. There could be little nuances that Chip values in OL play that he feels make Quinn the better candidate.
Overall, considering the unprecedented control that he was given over the offense when he was hired I have a hard time thinking he didn’t have some influence on this decision. How much? Who knows? But there has to be some. BK has been banging the coaching chemistry drum as of late, so this hire had to be one that everybody felt would jive well with Chip Long.
Sometimes great flashy hires of established big names turn into the chemistry experiment gone wrong that was the partnership of Brown and Tenuta.
This offseason and last seem like they should be switched. There seemed to be way more effort and creativity after 4-8, which seems like it should be harder and maybe just planning on being on your way out. Whereas after 10-3, you’d think BK would want an extra kick to bump it up another level. Although maybe saving his job was the motivation he needed last year, while this year he feels comfortable.
This year’s hires feel like Kelly is just filling out the staff for one final season.
“This year’s hires feel like Kelly is just filling out the staff for one final season.”
We can only hope.
So Clark Lea and Terry Joseph, who are both very well respected in coaching and recruiting circles, feel like he’s just filling out the staff? Or do you hate the Quinn hire soooooooo much that it’s destroyed the offseason grade completely?
I don’t hate any of the hires. I was rooting for Lea. I am pretty indifferent towards Joseph and Quinn. I am probably higher on Quinn as he was once an FBS head coach, not an easy thing for an OL coach.
But. 2 internal promotions, 1 is a first time coordinator, the other hasn’t coached in 2-3 years. The other guy may be good, but hardly a big name (and just came off an abysmal season). That sure sounds easier than last year where he went out and found 4 external coaches, including S&C. Alexander didn’t seem so a wildly inspired hire, and people questioned Long, but Elko was one of the hottest DCs on the market.
These may be the 3 best hires/promotions in BK’s career. I am not judging the actual hires. Just commenting on how this looks compared to last year.
On the other hand you don’t want to be so creative every year because at some point you do need some consistency. After 4-8 you need to make some big changes, after 10-3 you don’t want to make another big change again.
That’s a good point. We certainly saw with Weis that changing things up every year doesn’t work great.
I admittedly looked at it with the frame of reference of assuming BK is either going to retire or leave ND soon. So I would be lax after a down year, just assuming I was getting the axe, or gung-ho after a great year, trying to win something big on my way out. This is almost certainly not his perspective.
Yeah, I know this kind of thought floats around message boards everywhere for every team, but I think it fundamentally misjudges the way coaches are wired. There might be a few guys out there coasting for a paycheck, but most of these guys are hypercompetitive. I don’t think any but a few outliers would approach a season as playing out the string, no matter what the context.
Just going to drop this here… ISD has a great interview with Sean Mele, who played for Quinn for five years at Grand Valley.
https://irishsportsdaily.com/s/5298/mele-talks-about-his-former-line-coach-jeff-quinn
It’s worth a read.
Wow! That’s not only a ringing endorsement, he also challenges the reporter to find any player that Quinn has coached to say bad things about him.
I don’t think fans have near the knowledge nor the inside information to be too judgmental on coaching hires. It’s all one big crap shoot. I think most, not all, of the negative opinions of this hire are based on negative opinions of Kelly.
I agree with what Mele hinted at, that Quinn might not be cut out to be a head coach but has the right personality for OL. He rubbed a lot of people the wrong way in Buffalo? So what? Give Harry a HC job and see how many people he rubs the wrong way.
Joe Moore rubbed people the wrong way as an OL coach. I like ornery OL coaches, I think it passes on to the OLs themselves.
Wow that makes it sound like a perfect fit and very much like HH. Let’s hope Quinn can keep a good thing going with our OL.
Finally had a chance to read this. I would definitely NOT run through a wall for my HS OL coach.
The whole passion for OL that he mentions, and no more aspirations to coach anything else, makes me wonder if he was essentially brought in as an analyst in a “coach in waiting” type role. Since apparently it was always understood that HH would head back to the league, maybe this was the understanding.
That would be nice, as Quinn has a great resume, and if HH had left 3 years ago and he had been hired, I would have been very excited. It is just the weird, hasn’t coached in a while thing (has coached like 10 years more recently than ASU’s new head coach though). But Saban has also done that, so hopefully this works.
Hot take: was HH actually God incarnate like everyone is now repeating without question? His lines generally played pretty well amd four first rounders, but he had a lot of talent and our o line got owned every time it faced a top 5-ish opponent and sometimes when it didn’t. Someone pretend I’m not just a lawyer but a cave man lawyer who doesn’t understand this game of the oblong ball and is confused by the brightly illuminated electronic screen I am looking at and homosapiensplain it to me.
I think he was probably the best guy in the country at developing offensive linemen; whether or not he produced the best offensive lines is a trickier question. Even if you want to debate “best,” though, there’s no doubt he was really, really good.
Ok Brendan fine. One hunnit I respect your opinion completely. But what’s the case that he is the best OL developer in the country. Martin, Watt, Stanley, McGlinchey and Nelson were all pretty talented walking in the door.
After the black hole of OL recruiting that was the Ty Willingham era, Charlie Weis and his staff recruited a lot of four star talent at OL who were probably just as talented walking in as that group. But very few of them became the slam dunk pro prospects included in that list. There are multiple reasons why, but it’s safe to say that simply bringing in talented kids doesn’t guarantee much when it comes to producing top offensive linemen.
The comparison is illustrative, but maybe Kelly just scouted and recruited better.
That is definitely true, I think. But I seem to also recall some data a number of years back about how recruiting rankings of OL correlated less with ultimate success than other positions. It had something to do with the fact that many of them were simply highly regarded based on size and strength and being good at their position in HS required less skill than some other positions. There are also those who come in huge and never really develop the conditioning to be great. This as opposed to the HS TEs and DEs who grow into very athletic and very successful OL once they are in college.
If that is the case, certainly player development can play a role in success ratios. Of course, scouting and recruiting the right types comes into play, as well.
And some of them turned into better pro players than college players which seems to show they had the talent but didn’t quite get the coaching.
According to the 247 Composite, Watt was #42 overall, Nelson was #61, Stanley was #127, Zack Martin was #142, McGlinchey was #172, and Nick Martin was #529. McGlinchey’s ranking is a bit misleading as he was considered an *extremely* raw project.
Watt was a second rounder and looked like he was headed for a career as a starter until he hurt his knee. Nick Martin was a second rounder who won the starting job in Houston in his first camp before getting hurt, and then started all last season. Zack Martin was the first rookie All-Pro lineman since 1946. Stanley went #6 overall and is an entrenched starter. Nelson is about to go in the top ten, maybe the top five, and McGlinchey has a shot at the back end of the first round and definitely will go in the second if available.
Three to four first round picks, two of them in the top ten, in five seasons is pretty freaking excellent. All four picks he has already placed in the league became starters, and Nelson is pretty much guaranteed to start – one NFL scout said he could be the best run-blocking guard in the league next season. I can give you a looooooooooong list of highly-ranked prospects from any school who flamed out or flopped in the league. Yeah, Harry had good talent on the input side, but what he did on the output side is phenomenal.
It is a true challenge to get any group of people to move with a deliberate purpose in the same direction over a sustained period. He managed to develope individuals to just about their max individual potential consistently.
As far as o-lines underperforming, again, it’s a group effort thing. That group is susceptible to all of the minutia that affect group dynamics. I think ND has had good lines, they just didn’t perform to their max potential all of the time. I don’t think ND has had an environment of excellence throughout his tenure. He’s had to overcome that too.
If BK actually ran the ball in practice, maybe the OL as a whole would have been better under him.
Maybe, but could he take the punishment? We saw how beat up Josh Adams got over the course of the season from the pounding he took. Imagine BK taking that same pounding every day in practice. Plus, he’s probably not skilled enough to make the defense any better.
Was a joke. That is a rallying cry on TOS on why we aren’t good at football. Because we don’t practice running the ball.
Yup. I was playin. I’m witchu
Umm. Mine was a joke, too. Hence the angle of BK actually running the ball in practice.
Funny thing is, though, my head coach in college used to return punts against us in his 60s and looked pretty darned good doing it. But he’d been a running back at Miami Oh back in his day.
Wait, you don’t mean if BK ACTUALLY ran the ball in practice. I mean, I think he might be a bit too old and slow for that
Another point about HH as a coach. For most of his tenure ND’s defensive front has been more of a liability rather than an asset. I’m thinking the best way to ensure your o-line maximizes it’s potential is to practice against a great d-line. The one year that ND has a very good d-line, HH coaches them to the Joe Moore award. I think he is one of the top coaches at his position.
BTW – a couple of things to point out on the other finalists…
– Justin Frye has seven years as an OL coach. He was a GA at Florida when Addazio was the OL coach, followed Addazio to Temple, and followed him again to Boston College. He’s never been on his own, and while he’s logged some impressive results (four top 30 S&P+ rushing offenses) he’s also put up a couple of stinkers (two triple-digit rankings). He’s not a grizzled vet and he doesn’t have any NFL ties. He has produced two draft picks overall, both in the 6th round in 2015.
– Bob Bostad hasn’t been an OL coach since 2015 and hasn’t been a college OL coach since 2011. He was Wisconsin’s TE coach from 2006-07 and their OL coach from 2008-11. He turned out an impressive six draft picks in his four seasons running Wisconsin’s OL, including first-rounders Kevin Zeitler (#27) and Gabe Carimi (#29), a second-rounder, two third-rounders, and a seventh-rounder. He then spent two years as the Bucs’ OL coach, then two years as the Titans’ OL coach, then one year as Northern Illinois’s TE/FB coach, and last year back at Wisconsin as their ILB coach. Kind of odd that he couldn’t (or didn’t) get an OL job again.
– Joe Gilbert also hasn’t been a college OL coach since 2011, the last of his three years at Illinois. He was an assistant OL coach for the Colts in 2012, then the full OL coach from 2013-15, then was demoted back to assistant OL for 2016-17. In his three years as full OL coach, the Colts went from 12th in yards per carry, to 22nd, to 31st. In ten seasons coaching the OL at Toledo, UCF, Houston, and Illinois, he turned out three draft picks – one second-rounder, one third-rounder, and one fifth-rounder. In fairness, among those guys were Sebastian Vollmer and Jon Asamoah, both from Illinois, who have carved out respectable pro careers.
I’m NOT posting this to prove that Jeff Quinn was clearly the best available guy for the job. I’m merely asking those who feel that literally any other guy would be preferable to Quinn to look at those resumes and tell me why they’re all clearly better than Quinn, without factoring in Quinn and Kelly’s pre-existing relationship.
Good research, and I take the point, but I think at the end there you apply the wrong standard in the last paragraph. Because (a) it seems likely (or at least there is no contrary indication) that they could have kept Quinn on the staff anyways had they not hired him as an o-line coach and (b) he is easier to negatively recruit against (as he plays into certain negative narratives, whether or not they are overblown), I think the appropriate way to have viewed that search is that he should have to be clearly better than the alternatives. That is, if there were a tie between him and somebody else, they should have hired that somebody else. Now, it’s possible that BK thinks he got the best available guy and that’s that – in fact, I would hope so – but, as a corollary to what you’ve implied above, at least to me Quinn’s resume isn’t clearly better than those guys either.
What are the negative narratives that Quinn play into, outside of “hasn’t coached in 3 years.” Which disappears in 6 months.
Outside of ND BK haters, the fact that he hires people he has worked with in the past isn’t actually a negative narrative.
Yeah, there’s clearly a negative narrative on Quinn in the ND fan base, but I don’t get where there’s one that would play into recruiting any more than for anyone else. “Don’t go play for that guy, he’s worked with Kelly forever!” Huh? Why would a recruit consider that a bad thing? “Don’t play for that guy, he only turned out two Pro Bowlers at CMU and Cincy!” Uhh… “Don’t play for that guy, he hasn’t coached in three years!” Well, I don’t know, maybe, but like Juice said, that won’t work past the end of the 2018 cycle.
I mean, there are plenty of negative recruiting narratives for the other guys too. “Don’t play for Bostad, he was such an awesome OL coach that Mike Mularkey fired him and then he didn’t coach the OL at either Northern Illinois or Wisconsin.” “Don’t play for Frye, he’s not ready for big boy football and he won’t get you ready for the NFL.” “Don’t play for Gilbert, he sucks.”
I’m not saying I buy into all those myself, just pointing out that as a dedicated follower of recruiting I can assure you that recruiters can easily find a negative narrative about anyone in the country, even happy-go-lucky Dabo.
ND and BK are so loaded with easy negative recruiting pickings that there’s really no reason to dip all the way down to the Asst Coach level.
It happens, though. Jimmy Lake at Washington hammered Todd Lyght in the Kyler Gordon recruitment. I can’t remember specific cases off the top of my head but other Kelly assistants have definitely been targeted. I’m sure we’ve done our fair share, too. All’s fair in love and war, after all. As Steve Wiltfong likes to say, negative recruiting is recruiting.
I just don’t think there’s any particularly noteworthy material on Quinn as compared to anyone else. I’m sure people negative recruited against Hiestand too. They’re always going to say “you don’t want to play for that guy because [x],” and just the [x] will change based on the guy.
Pssh, no one can say a cross word about St. Harry!
Kidding aside, it did make me gasp a little when Quenton Nelson’s father mentioned how Urban Meyer declared that big Q would hate South Bend so he just shouldn’t go at all. So, yeah, one way or another the slings and arrows of negative recruiting are going to be flying at targets. All a part of the game, yo.
Maybe only Bostad is better than Quinn solely on resume. Hard to judge based on NFL talent produced. Essentially, Frye, Gilbert and Quinn coached at places that didn’t get good talent to mold into NFL players. Bostad, at Wisconsin, probably had the most to work with, and, as a result, produced the best.
I too am troubled that someone with his creds could not get an OL job when he decided to go back to college. Then again, Quinn became an analyst for three years and didn’t get a coaching job.
Quinn does appear to be the only OL lifer.
didn’t get a coaching job doesn’t mean couldn’t get a coaching job.
Exactly. I believe it’s come out that he was still being paid by Buffalo per his contract. If that was the case, he might have voided that if he took an on-field job elsewhere. Probably depends on the contract. But if anything, it meant he didn’t need to find an on-field job just for the sake of financial reasons. That allowed him to stay involved at a place like Notre Dame working with a coach he knows rather than taking a job just to take one in a worse situation.
Plus, I recall reading an article years ago – about the time the Kelly was hired at ND – about what a huge ND fan Quinn is. He is from the Chicago area and, I believe, said it was always his dream to coach at ND, but when he was offered the HC position at Buffalo, he couldn’t turn it down. It’s been a while, but that’s my recollection. All that is to say that it would not surprise me if he turned down other coaching jobs because Kelly told him that HH would be gone soon and, in the meantime, you can coach at ND, learn the offense, learn the guys, be a sounding board for me. Doesn’t sound like a bad gig, especially if he was also being paid by Buffalo.
Also, there have been a number of people who say that, even if Quinn is a good coach “it looks bad.” I just don’t get that. Looks bad to whom? Frankly, I don’t care if it looks bad to anyone except the players, coaches, and recruits. I suspect that the players and coaches were all on board with it and the recruits probably don’t know a whole lot and really just want to see if they like the guy. Given what Sean Mele wrote, I suspect that the recruits will get along with him just fine (can we have Sean talk to Mr. Petit-Frere?)
As I said when the hire was first announced, it is hard for fans to know who is good and who is not. It’s Kelly’s job on the line (and Long’s), so if they think Quinn is the best hire, who am I to judge. Let’s just hope he’s an Elko or HH hire and not a BVG.
I wonder how much of the “Quinn is a bad recruiter” narrative is accurate. Visiting the 5* kid today with Autry Denson (a personable and good ‘crooter!) so that’s a good combo, one would think. Sounds like it was reported Quinn also met with the 3* star commit Luke Jones in house yesterday so at least he’s putting in the effort. If ND still gets Petit-Frere to sign, I won’t have too much time for worrying about the recruiting angle of this hire. If Jones decommits though that could be a warning sign.
It comes from people hearing that he’s not a great recruiter and assuming it means he’s a bad recruiter. He’s not Mario Cristobal. Very few OL coaches are, though. The traits that make them a good OL coach don’t usually come with the traits that make them a good recruiter. Cristobal is a rarity.
Sampson, for example, has said that while he’s not a fan of the hire he thinks that Quinn will be a sizable upgrade over Hiestand in recruiting. He gets out on the road, which Harry absolutely hated, and he does all the recruiter-y stuff like keeping up contact with kids, which Harry didn’t really have an appetite for. Quinn is also going to visit Patterson next week, incidentally.
His recruiting effort will be fine. What I would consider valid criticisms/concerns about the hire are these:
– Will he be able to shake the rust off quickly?
– Will staff chemistry remain good? (I don’t assume he will affect it negatively, I just see this as a risk.)
– He’s a good OL coach, no doubt. Is he good enough, though, to keep the offense humming like it was last year?
I don’t know how any of those should be answered now. It’s possible that just one negative answer will be enough to materially affect next season’s performance. It’s possible that all three are positive answers. Who knows?
Definitely. Though with losing 2 All Americans I doubt the glorious Hiestand, best coach in all the land would have the o-line as good as it was last year, so who knows. I agree with the sentiment of it all though, my statement was more that it would be good to kill a narrative with fire if as the first high profile event of being o-line coach if Quinn can help get the commitment of the ***** Petit-Frere.
I really doubt that we would’ve gotten Petit-Frere even if Hiestand stayed, from some things I’ve heard; in fact I’m not sure he’ll leave his state, let alone his region. I’d love to be wrong, but I’m not optimistic as of right now.
I think it would be helpful just to land Patterson, honestly. Won’t be anywhere near the splash that NPF would, but it would at least be a positive mark on the ledger in the first few weeks on the job. It might keep the torches unlit until the Blue-Gold game.
Also, I definitely agree that if Joe Moore himself came down out of the clouds to coach next year’s OL it would still take a step back. I like what we have coming back – essentially four starters thanks to the Hainsey/Kraemer timeshare – but replacing Nelson is impossible and replacing McGlinchey is a tall order. The goal will be to minimize the dropoff.
Heh, a “tall” order 😉
Purely accidental and I almost changed it, but I thought, nah, I don’t even get paid for this. Might as well have some fun! 🙂
Whatever HH’s reputation brought him the top talent. This year he signed 3 – 3 stars. And while we normally just give hi the benefit of the doubt because he’s the best coach in the land. That’s still a low level class for us. It’s one thing to get a high four star, a low four star and a 3 star but over the course of it the chances of three 3 stars turning out to be high level starters is not all that likely.
This was an historically bad year for OL recruiting in the midwest. That didn’t help much this year. And actually, if you look at OL recruiting under Heistand, he never really casted a wide net. He identified his guys early and stuck with them. If they didn’t pan out, often there wasn’t much back-up. That how we ended up with a couple smaller groups. I think as a recruiter he developed great relationships with the guys that bought into him, though. That’s why he was a strong closer once a player got to the final stages and had ND near the top.
Some things to point out on the “Quinn as a contingency plan” point… He did have a buyout from Buffalo, but as you might expect given that it’s Buffalo, the parachute wasn’t quite as golden as, say, Kevin Sumlin’s at A&M. He was fired in the first year of an extension, which entitled him to a single lump-sum payment of a full year’s salary, which was $325K. Not too shabby but not exactly rest-on-your-laurels money either. So while the buyout might’ve helped cushion his fall a bit, it probably wasn’t enough in itself to convince him to pass up coaching jobs.
The flip side of that is that he got a couple of promotions at ND. Kelly brought him on as an offensive analyst in 2015, then he got bumped to assistant strength coach in 2016, then to senior offensive analyst in 2017. It’s reasonable to assume he got a least a moderate salary bump each time as well, and from what we’ve heard of other analyst positions it also seems safe to assume he started around $150Kish. It seems that Harry to the NFL was more a question of when than if, so possibly Quinn got successive raises to keep him around until it became clear Harry was either leaving or going. ISD reported that Quinn has turned down offers to stay at ND as an analyst; perhaps if Harry had stayed another year, Quinn would’ve stopped turning down offers.
Who knows. So little is actually known. I just wanted to get the fact of his relatively small buyout and my conjecture about the raises at ND out there.
ISD reporting that he turned down other offers is what backed me off the ledge. Others have mentioned that Quinn hasn’t worked with many other successful head coaches, as he was with Kelly his whole career before becoming the HC at Buffalo. I think it’s likely that BK just didn’t think any of the other guys were significant enough upgrades over Quinn to outweigh the continuity and familiarity factors. By all reports, the program did their due diligence. Kelly is coaching for his job for the next few years, and Quinn is the most known quantity to him.
We can’t really know whether BK made an honest evaluation and landed on Quinn, or whether he went into the process with Quinn picked already and the rest was just for show. I think the latter is what the people who are most upset assume happened, but I don’t see why anyone with as much to lose as Kelly would do that.
Crap, well there goes the point I made above. That will teach me to type before looking for Brendan’s takes.
Further updating… The article I read about his buyout had it wrong. They said it was a one-time lump sum that decreased in each year, so the first year it was a $325k check, then if he got fired the next year it was $200k, then $150k, then $100k (numbers might not be exact but they’re close). In actuality, that was what he would get each year, with the larger amount falling off as he moved to the next year of the contract.
So in 2014, he got $325k from Buffalo. In his first year at ND, he got $200k, and so on. I would still guess ND was probably paying him low to mid six figures as an analyst, which seems pretty standard. That does make it a bit easier to turn down an OL job somewhere for, say, $300k, especially if they had some kind of understanding that he’d get an interview if Hiestand left.
On the coaching upheaval front… The other day the Packers announced Jerry Montgomery would return as their DL coach, two weeks after Texas A&M announced his hiring. He had even been out on the road recruiting for them.
Today, Alabama hired former Arkansas OC Dan Enos as QB coach, a week or two after Michigan hired him as WR coach. Enos was Michigan’s contingency plan for a Pep Hamilton exit – he had a $600k kicker in his contract if he got promoted to OC. Oops.
It’s not just us.
Its never just us. Coaches leave every school. Heck, the ones we hired came from other schools. recruits decommit from every school. It never happened when St. Lou was the coach, except that it did.
No fanbase is ever satisfied with the latest coach. The player that got away is better than the one we got. That is true as often as it is not.
If we had gotten Frye as OL coach, people would be pointing to his lack of experience. If Bostad to the fact that he hadn’t coached OL in college in 6 seasons. If the NFL guy, that he was an NFL guy who has been demoted in his last two attempts. I am not sure if it is just our fanbase, but, if you take TOS at its face value, a significant portion of our fanbase has become glass is empty (forget half) and we may never see any water again. It gets tiring. Quinn feeds that mentality more than the other three. If he never had met Kelly before, the comment would be that he was small-timey. You can’t win.
ITs never just us. We just don’t want to admit it.