Saturday marks another installment of the rivalry game between Notre Dame and Navy that has been running continuously since the first meeting in 1927. Besides a pair of games in Dublin–and another just announced to be coming again in 2020–the vast majority of the ‘away’ games in the series have been played in the Midwest (largely, Cleveland in the past) or in more recent times in the Eastern cities of Philadelphia, New York, or Baltimore quite often. This weekend’s game will be the first held in California and the furthest west of Chicago.
Notre Dame (-24) at Navy
San Diego County Credit Union Stadium
San Diego, California
Date: Saturday, October 27, 2018
Time: 8:00 PM ET
TV: CBS
Series: 77-13-1 Notre Dame
Navy is currently in the middle of some major struggles having lost 4 straight and 5 of their first 7 games to open 2018, in addition to going 4-11 over their last 15 games stretching back to last year. The current 5 losses are already a tie for the 3rd most in a season under Ken Niumatalolo and with Cincinnati and UCF on deck following Saturday, the Middies could be looking at a 2-8 record relatively soon. They get to play a 13th game thanks to a trip to Hawaii (which they lost) so record-wise this is shaping up to be the worst Navy team of the Coach Ken era with potentially the most losses since 2002.
3 Pre-Game Topics
Yeah, it’s Pretty Ugly Right Now
Navy’s current problems boil down to two major issues. One, they’ve mismanaged their quarterback situation. Two, their defense has bottomed out like we haven’t seen in many years. We’ll cover the offense below but the defense has been struggling in a way that makes it hard to win against any quality competition.
Currently, the Middies are allowing 6.56 yards per play (115th nationally) and nothing on their S&P+ defensive main profile has them better than 90th nationally. The opener at Hawaii wasn’t a good sign after the Warriors posted 31 completions for 436 yards and 6 touchdowns in a 59-point effort.
The only thing that’s looked remotely good is Navy’s win over Memphis when they limited the S&P+ 9th ranked offense to 21 points. Even that was largely due to Memphis’ 4 turnovers as Navy hogged the ball for nearly 43 minutes. When the Tigers did have the ball they averaged 7.7 yards per play.
Inside Job
I’m sure Irish safety Alohi Gilman will be ready to jump through a wall this Saturday. The former Midshipmen was last seen in this rivalry back in 2016 when he made a game-high 12 tackles before deciding to chase his NFL dream in South Bend. The USNA dragged their feet with submitting the necessary paperwork in August 2017 and all but guaranteed Gilman would be denied his chance to compete right away with the Irish last year.
Now, it’s payback time! I doubt he’ll have many secrets to give the staff that they don’t already know, though. This is just a case of a really good football player competing with extra motivation.
30-Something
I am virtually contractually obligated to mention this every year: Notre Dame has never lost in regulation (39-0-0) when they score at least 30 points against Navy. The Irish were on a 30+ point streak from 2011-15 but did not hit the mark in either of the last 2 meetings with the Middies.
Navy is giving up 34.3 points per game without having faced a Power 5 team yet. So, the math isn’t working in the Middies favor.
2 Key Opponents
QB Garrett Lewis
Basically, it breaks down like this: Zach Abey is the tough inside runner, Malcom Perry is the small speedster, and Garret Lewis is the mixture of both at quarterback. Last year, the Middies tried to hammer Abey down the throats of opponents but often found him ineffective before moving Perry over from slotback. Perry has been far more explosive but has found it difficult to stay healthy–he missed the Notre Dame game last year as Abey plunged forward for 87 yards on 29 carries.
This weekend, Navy appears ready to settle on Lewis with Perry back at slotback and Abey also working at slotback and at quarterback in short-yardage situations. Lewis is also the most comfortable throwing the ball as he’s launched 49 passes this season and 24 over the last 2 weeks alone.
SB C.J. Williams
One of the great and terrible things about Navy is young players without any recruiting profile popping up and being good players immediately. C.J. Williams is a sophomore who didn’t play last year and missed the last 2 games with an injury while he’s expected to be back in action this Saturday night.
Williams could be one of the dynamic playmakers at slot back that Navy needs in this game. In just 5 games he’s totaled 143 rushing yards on 13 carries and also produced 148 receiving yards on 8 catches.
1 Prediction
With the last Notre Dame game I predicted a big day offensively and a relatively easy win. That, did not happen. Last year against Navy I predicted 51 points. That, did not happen. The Irish were super efficient running the ball against the Middies last year but only had the ball for 49 snaps and Wimbush’s mere 9 completions were another data point piling up that the passing game was never going to take off under his leadership.
No game against Navy can be discussed without bringing up the limited amount of snaps. A couple bad snaps can mean you’re going to get 20 fewer snaps overall and it’s always the worst feeling against a triple option team.
Additionally, our writers room was recently discussing which opponent(s) down the stretch wouldn’t be in the right frame of mind to try and upset an undefeated Notre Dame. I’m pretty sure Navy is going to be ready as anyone to spring the upset. It’d be shocking to see them play poorly or lay down even though for all intents and purposes their season is over.
National Rankings
| STAT | IRISH | NAVY |
|---|---|---|
| F/+ | 8 | 86 |
| S&P+ | 7 | 100 |
| S&P+ Offense | 41 | 38 |
| S&P+ Defense | 5 | 117 |
I think this mentality, as per usual, will manifest itself in Navy’s offense. As much as they’ve struggled this year they are still plenty dangerous on offense and honestly switching to Garrett Lewis and leaving Malcom Perry out of the mix likely helps them craft a better gameplan against the Irish. There’s always a chance they break out some small wrinkle that’s been dormant in their offense for years, too. That’s always fun.
Prior to doing more research, I was getting some strong 2011 vibes from this matchup. That game featured Tommy Rees’ precision passing (16 of 22) carving up Navy and a strong ground-game punching in a bunch of touchdowns. After the obligatory slow start, the Irish raced out to a 35-7 halftime lead on the way to a cruise-controlled 56-14 victory.
My only hesitation in that comparison was that Navy was struggling back then in their first post-Ricky Dobbs season and Notre Dame limited them to just 229 total yards in Diaco’s Revenge following the embarrassment at MetLife Stadium in 2010. This Irish defense is good but expecting a total domination like that could be a lot to ask.
Interestingly, the over/under set by Vegas is only at 53.5 and if we assume Notre Dame’s offense has a pretty decent day they are expecting Navy not to do a whole lot with the ball.
One of the most accurate quarterbacks is going to face one of the worst pass defenses in the country. I’m really tempted to throw down something crazy like 60+ points except Navy is bound to convert a handful of third or fourth downs in annoying fashion to ever make that possible and the damaged fan in me believes there will be a couple of moments of struggle that has come to typify this rivalry. The combination of Notre Dame rarely covering these large spreads and Navy rarely losing by this much when such a heavy underdog is too much to ignore.
The most important over/under is regular-season-ending injuries suffered. If it’s 0.5, I unfortunately would take the over.
End this series.
I still think we should try and get Navy to agree to a once every 4 years deal and it’s always neutral site (or wherever Navy wants it) with them keeping all the gate.
Posted over on TOS that I’d like to see Sparty, Purdzzzz, Stan and Navy in a rotation like we do with all the ACC teams. Maybe have two of those four every other year or if we wanted to do one a year with home and home agreements. For Navy, of course, they could do the neutral site thing if they wanted.
Maybe I’m the only one, but I think Stanford is a perfectly good annual opponent. It has effectively turned into the we-can’t-recruit-everyone championship game, and provides opportunity to say to California kids that their parents will be able to get a game in state every year given that + SC.
I don’t like playing Navy because (a) their style of play; (b) it’s not super enjoyable beating a football team of guys who are, you know, about to sign up to do important public service, thus making it harder to cheer against them; and (c) these away game environs are pretty sterile (other than Ireland; huzzah for playing there again in 2 years).
It’d probably be better for the program if ND used the spot to keep the Shamrock Series, but play a game each year against lower-level P5 or Group of 5 teams at venues where there were recruits. Go crazy: Play FAU in Atlanta! Play Lousiana-Lafayette in Birmingham! Play Cal in Vegas! That’d be fun.
I dont have hatred for Stan nor do I really have a reasoning for dropping them. I’d just rather ensure that we keep Sparty and scUM on the schedule because those rivalries are super fun. I dont have any really disposition towards Stan at all. It’s a big game but if they were #30 in the country the matchup would be equivalent to playing Vandy or Wake. #30 Michigan or Sparty, though….there’s blood on the line with that game.
I see no reason to play Michigan and Michigan State in the same year, ever. First off, at this point Stanford is a (much) bigger rival than MSU – yes, in part because they are better than MSU, but that’s where things stand. Second, playing both doesn’t help us in recruiting any more than playing one would. Third, eh, I think one cool thing about ND is that we’re a national school. We don’t need to play up the midwestern thing.
On this I wholeheartedly agree.
But of course with the caveat of F Michigan, I hope their program folds and the school burns down.
I want scUM every year. The passion that KG showcased below is the exact reason. We need someone to absolutely despise with everything in our being. Big part of what makes football great are the emotions and no one brings it out for us more than the skunks. Sparty/Purdzzz/Navy/Stan should be on a rotation. Maybe two of those four every other year
I just don’t think Stanford has ever deserved an annual spot on our schedule.
David Shaw has him some bulletin board material!
I don’t think Shaw would mind ending or limiting the series either. In the preseason I remember him complaining about the way the Pac12 schedule has to put USC and Stanford against each other in week 2 or 3 each year to accommodate their games with ND.
How many knees must we sacrifice upon the alter of Mutual Respect?
Ian Book 28-32 4tds, 333yds passing. ND 42 -17. TOP navy 38 min ND 22 min. Enjoy the sunshine boys.
I dont think the TOP spread will be that even. I’m thinking like 45-15 or even 50-10. I see ND scoring super fast on all of their drives and Navy just grinding it out. I’m drooling thinking of Dex just hitting the ONE hole that gets opened up and he’ll absolutely smoke everyone on Navy’s D. I wouldnt be shocked to see 3-4 50+ yard runs by him.
Well, the humane thing to do is always put it out of its misery.
The key to stopping the option is playing smart assignment defense, and a disruptive defensive line.
So the TWO keys to stopping the option are playing smart assignment defense, and a disruptive defensive line, oh, and maximizing your own offensive possessions so they can’t play keep away.
The THREE main keys are laying smart assignment defense, a disruptive defensive line, and maximizing your own offensive possessions so they can’t play keep away, and a FANATICAL DEVOTION TO KNUTE ROCKNE
No one expects the IRISH INQUISITION!
In all seriousness, Navy will always concern me, but we’re pretty set at the three MAIN KEYS above:
We should understand our assignments very well–with Gilman having played it in practice for a year, Tranq and Coney having played this offense a bunch, and Love having played the high safety against them last year, we’ve got plenty of good eyes in the backfield who can diagnose what’s going on and play their lanes.
Disruptive defensive line? Check. Hold the middle for the dive (Terry Jillery) and get upfield on the edge (Kareem, Okwara) and force the QB decisions early. This makes life so much harder on the Navy QB.
Maximize your own offensive possessions: We’ve got a 75% passes who excels at short throws, who should eat this defense alive. Big plays are great if they put points on the board and distance between us, but we can also use up clock and march down the field with the short passing game, giving our D time to rest.
Then put them in the comfy chair, boys.
MP autorec, just rewatched it and as hilarious as the first time in the hall TV room
I see I didn’t actually predict a score.
I’ll go with 45-17. This Navy team isn’t good enough to keep pace. Our O may not have the ball much, but they’ll hit big plays and score. Navy’s defense isn’t good at defending anything. On D, we’ve got the right tools to make it a long day for their offense. They’ll get some yardage, and they’ll get a few scores, because the system works, but it won’t work enough. I think our D forces some turnovers, gives the O some short fields, and that’s what allows us to get up to 45. Navy will have some drives that take some time off the clock, but they won’t eve be a threat, and at least one of their scores will be well into garbage time against our backups. Hit big plays, get up early, and get our starting D-linemen out or at least rotated as soon as practical.
GIVE EM FLUFFY PILLOW
Two things: Navy is starting Garret Lewis at quarterback this week, their “best passer”. If we don’t stomp Navy it’s going to be because they mix some explosive plays in with their usual efficiency.
Second: Are any of the writers here in favor of keeping the Navy series? It seems to be an under-represented position among ND writers.
I’m in favor of dropping Navy (and Stanford) as annual games. Especially since we signed the ACC deal.
I think it’s dumb that we play them every year. I *know* cut blocks are legal, but aside from that, Navy plays dirty – just ask Ed Oliver. That was less of a problem when they were trotting out 230 lb. offensive linemen in the 90’s, but as their program has, uh, developed, they now have full-size guys and it’s a lot more dangerous. For all the talk of the valiant overmatched Middies taking on Goliath, their starting OL averages 6’4″/286 lbs. Starting C Ford Higgins at 260 is the only guy on the OL *three*-deep under 276. They don’t need to cut block anymore, but they still do and it’s much riskier with guys that size.
Also, from a more big picture standpoint, there’s no benefit to it. Navy has morphed into a decent team, but everybody still considers them a pathetic academy so we get no credit for winning. And, of course, tremendous embarrassment for losing, all while risking the knees and ankles of our front seven.
No thanks.
I’m fine with disliking the way Navy plays and so on. I’m fine with the whole “oh but injuries” though I would like to see some actual numbers that teams suffer more injuries against service academies/Georgia Tech rather than anecdotal “but that one time.”
What I disagree with is (and thankfully I haven’t see anyone say it…yet) the whole “ND can’t be competitive at the playoff level if we’re always playing Navy and having to worry about them.” If you’re worried about how Navy affects your competitiveness, you’re not playoff material anyway. Sit down.
I am violently opposed to ND taking any unilateral action to end the series. History and debts and Father Hesburgh’s feelings on this matter to me, and should matter to the administration. If Navy wants to limit the series or discontinue it or whatever, fine. I get that I’m in the minority actually caring about things from the 1940s, but I’m a historian, after all.
What is the debt? This was something I was thinking about this week and as an ardent defender of keeping the series, I’m curious what should the amount of the debt we owe to Navy be? We know the story, so no need to rehash it, but how close was ND to honestly closing the doors? What guarantee do we have that it would not have survived or reopened after the war? Put a number on what we should realistically owe them for saving us.
I’m not throwing away nor diminishing what they did, I fully understand the importance of moving the Naval training academy to South Bend back in the 40s, but IMHO, that debt has been paid. We dont need to keep adding on to it unnecessarily.
Based on reports from everyone involved at the time, ND really would have had to close its doors. The money was drying up. There was almost no endowment left. I truly don’t think ND would have re-opened.
All of that being said, I couldn’t care less. It was 50 years before anybody on either of these rosters was born. And it wasn’t even their football team saving ND. We’ve given them the biggest or 2nd biggest (I’m sure most Navy players would call the Army game bigger) game of the year for their program every single season for a decade, and they finally got their wins against us recently. That’s plenty of payback on a debt that never even involved the football programs in the first place. Play out the current contract with them, have a good time in Ireland, and then be done with this nonsense on a yearly basis.
Father Hesburgh promised to keep the Naval Academy on the football schedule for as long as it wants.
There is no statute of limitations on your word.
I mean actually – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_against_perpetuities
Well, if we’re using Hesburgh’s word then the Uniform Statutory Rule Against Perpetuities mentioned in the wiki you linked says we have to wait until 2105 to overrule him. 😛
Just to throw some sort of eyewitness stuff out here — my mom’s father was ND’s Dean of Chemistry (mom and my uncles grew up playing with the Rockne kids) and one time when I was little, granddad was at the house and he was talking with my father and my uncles and one of the CSC priests who ran the school back in the day — they were real serious about the Navy V-12 program saving our rear end in the war. Back in the day we were pretty damn poor. It was in the same conversation as us terminating the series vs Army because of all the gambling. The Hesburgh promise didn’t come up but I remember my folks talking about it when Staubach beat us (btw, that was one of the best games I have ever seen from an individual opponent in ND Stadium). Anyway, the aura was, yeah we should keep playing them; and oh irony of ironies, that was when we were finishing up the Terry Brennan and Joe Kuharich years and we were really kind of on our butts…
Anyway, I am with KG on this one all the way.
See, I take this as way more convincing than E’s “well, I just feel it isn’t really about that” statements below. “Well, I just kinda feel it wasn’t that big of a deal” vs. “I’ve heard firsthand accounts that it was very much a big deal”–it’s still us hearing it second (or third) hand through you, MoreNoise, but at least there’s a connection. Granted, I’m inclined to take your statements as evidence because I support keeping the series, whereas if you “just don’t think it is important” then it wouldn’t matter anyway.
🙂 anyway, one thing we can all agree on today — Beat the Squids!
It WAS important, of course. I dont hold any great ill will towards Navy and I’m grateful to them as a fan of the program. But it has to end at some point. Eventually, you’ve done your part and put up with enough to say “thanks.”
You’re on a cruise and the boat sinks. You are injured in the sinking and break both of your arms, legs and absolutely cant swim. A man grabs you and rescues you and puts you in a life boat. He saved your life and you are eternally grateful. You both live in the same town, so you promise to let him live with you, you feed him and house him to thank him. While he lives with you, he breaks your TV, invites shady characters over at all hours of the night and is, generally a PITA. Great guy, but the stuff he does irritates the s*** out of you.
Are you willing to continue putting up with that for 40, 50, 60 years or at some point do you say, “look, this cant work out.”
Well said KG.
Really hoping we can get out to a big lead early in this one. I don’t want Tillery and the other key linemen on the field in the 2nd half if we can help it.
Book to Boykin might be a 150 yard combo in this game. Navy has nobody who can deal with Boykin’s size, unless they’re going to throw a safety over the top in coverage. But there should be no way for them to slow down the run game without keeping the safeties close to the box. Would love to see a dominating effort out of the O Line in this one.
Question: would any of us really be asking for the Navy series to end if they were just a bad team that ran a pro-style offense? It seems that the Navy series is only unpopular because it means we have to play the triple option every year and that involves taking on cut blocks. Yet we saw earlier this year that scummy teams like Vanderbilt can cut-block us too so what’s really behind wanting to cancel the Navy series?
I get that playing Navy is an annoyance, but we get just as annoyed playing Stanford every year too and our guys always get hurt on their POS home turf. If you don’t play Navy that means you’ll either get:
A) An elite P5 like Ohio State or Georgia, but you’d need them to agree to that game in the first place and would you really want to make the schedule that much harder?
B) More Ball States/body-bag games which will excite absolutely no one.
C) Something in between where you play Vandy or USF. But I always hate those types of games because you just invite those teams to come to South Bend and play as hard as possible because they know it would be their only shot to beat us.
I just don’t think people are understanding the full ramifications of ending a series like this that is approaching 100 years. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I’m perfectly okay with ND’s scheduling right now and I don’t want to fall into the trap of trying to schedule an A+ slate every year when in reality we really just need to win the games.
Vandy used cut blocks on defense, which was one of the stranger things I’ve ever seen. Anyway, yes, other teams do cut, but not on every single play. And Navy plays dirty, period. They try to hurt guys. This is not a secret in the football world. Again, look at what they did to Ed Oliver last week:
There was also a play in the Weis era, not coincidentally also under Niumatalolo, where one of their receivers dove into Blanton’s legs from behind. 30 yards away from the play. After it ended. Remember when Kallen Wade stomped on a guy late in the Meadowlands game? Part of it was frustration with the game overall, but part was frustration with dealing with their cheap shot BS.
I’m fine with adding a middle of the road team that people will see as a middle of the road team, instead of “pfffft an academy.” The fact that we’ve played them continuously for umpteen years doesn’t register for me, at least not as a reason in and of itself to continue the series.
#TeamBrendan
Man that’s gruesome. Yikes
That’s not a cut block, that’s an illegal chop block. Navy, like other teams very very rarely chop block, and when they do they should be penalized for it.
If Navy runs that same play the other direction 78 does the same thing, but 72 isn’t engaged with Oliver and it’s a fine cut block. A bad mistake that should never have happened but hardly evidence of a dirty program.
That is NOT a mistake. A D1 OL doesn’t mistakenly dive into the side of the opponent’s best player’s knee while the player is engaged and the play is going the other direction. Oliver was already getting double teamed, there is no way this guy thought he was supposed to cut block him.
And that wouldn’t have been a good cut block even if it were going the other direction. He went straight for his knee. A good cut block should be hitting them on the thigh (watch 61), which is much less dangerous (should still be illegal in my opinion).
That OL practices cut blocking 20 hours a week. This play is 100% intentional and as dirty as is gets. That doesn’t necessarily mean the program is dirty, but everything about this play is indefensible.
If the other defender wasnt engaged high,I’m still calling that for clipping. This goes beyond this one hit, though. The fact that every single lineman on their team cut blocks and they do it every single play raises the opportunities for chops like this to occur. Teams that never block low will never have a chop block because you dont have players diving at defenders knees.
I agree. I’d need a lot more evidence to call them a dirty program.
I was at the USC Arizona game this year. SC had bad penalties all night.
Serious question, weren’t there rules changes in effect from this season that limit the amount/angle/etc. of the cutblocks? I remember that being a big talking point in the preseason in some places.
I hate this offense. I hate playing it. I hate watching it. And I won’t deny that Niumatalolo’s teams have at times been…aggressive…okay, downright dirty. But I’d still like to see some actual data that indicates teams facing this offense suffer injuries at a statistically significant higher rate than other teams. I hate this offense for the very reasons Navy runs it–it mitigates talent advantages and makes every game a slog. Much like I hate Stanford, I respect Navy for what they do, even if I hate to watch the game and just want to get through it every year. On the other hand, we play them EVERY YEAR. There should be some institutional knowledge on how to deal with this offense, and I think we’ve finally got a bit of it.
And it’s not just about “we’ve played them continuously for umpteen years.” Come on, Brendan, you know that. If you want to say that the US Navy keeping ND from folding in WWII is a debt that’s been paid, then okay, but I don’t really think that is anyone’s argument for stopping the series. I think the argument is “offense hurts our players, they’re annoying to play because no one gives us credit for it.” And I’m not saying those are unreasonable positions–but for me, they either aren’t proven enough (the injury data) or aren’t compelling enough (if ND is at the level we think we should be, playing Navy shouldn’t be an issue whether we get credit or not) to change anything.
I AM all for telling Navy that we want changes to the scheduling. Play them first, play them after a bye week…whichever makes the most sense. Get it over and done with and move. on. Stop moving it to random places if there’s not a clear logic (yes, Ireland is “fun,” but we aren’t recruiting caber toss specialists). But as far as I’m concerned, the only two games I wouldn’t want to come off the schedule each year are Navy and USC.
(For the record, Michigan should never be on our schedule. F— them, and I’d like a rotation between MSU, Purdue, and “other B1G teams.” Otherwise I like what we’re doing, for the most part, minus the dumb location scheduling and timing.)
For the record, I just shot an email to Bill C. to see if there was any sort of breakdown available for injuries after facing Navy/Ga Tech/Army/AFA, etc. I doubt he’ll do anything on it in season, but maybe he could get around to it for an off season project.
In fairness, caber tossing is Scottish. That’d be like going to the library to recruit players to UNC.
Comment of the week.
Burnnnnnnn
I put out a full breakdown on the cut block rules changes over on TOS. I encourage you to go read that and see if you still have questions about it.
To quickly answer your question, though, the rule change in 2016 changed the angle part. They added that a low block had to be within a 10 and 2 region(think of a clock face where directly ahead is 12:00).
One of the things they did with that this year is they interpreted the direction of the block instead of simply which part of the defenders body got hit. Last year, if you dove from the side and hit the player in the front of his legs, you were fine. This year, if you dive from outside 10-2, you are guilty of an illegal block. It’s more about the defender being able to see you coming and defend himself.
Thanks. Do you (or does the post you wrote, which I’ll get to eventually, but I’m not sure I even remember my login over there) know how that’s affected the teams who run this offense? GaTech has put up some massive scores against VaTech and Louisville in particular (that one was beautiful to watch as Johnson ran all over VanGorder) so it hasn’t affected them at least, assuming it’s being called.
Well, Navy is 2-5 so there’s that. I dont get into the football aspect of it much, the post was simply about the rules.
Took the words right out of my mouth. I just think we seriously overestimate how many guys get beat up after playing Navy and how many actually suffer serious injuries. The last ND player I can remember (who was absolutely crucial to our defense) who was injured against them was Joe Schmidt in 2014 and I can’t even remember if that was cut-block related. Even the Blanton cheap shot luckily didn’t end in an injury although it could have.
A couple of weeks ago we lost our best offensive player on a play that was just bad luck against a non-option school. I get that Navy doesn’t play clean but again, I would bet that if they were just a bad team with a vanilla offense we would salivate over them on the schedule every year. I would love to see some data that proves the “playing Navy = more injuries” but until then I don’t see a good reason why the series should end. Just win the damn game, Air Force did it easily enough.
If this was Ball State that we had been playing for 100 years, I’d want that nonsense to end too. Or if we want to talk about a program similar in stature to Navy, I’d say if we had been playing Memphis or some other middling G5 school, that would be dumb to continue.
The full ramifications of ending this series would involve us not having to play the same mediocre team every single season. And they would 100% come back to us if we asked them to, even after cancelling on them.
And Navy plays against us like it’s a bowl game every year. We’re their biggest or 2nd biggest game every season (depending on whether or not Army is any good). Nobody is coming to ND playing more desperately for a win than Navy.
It’s not Memphis or some other middling G-5 school. It’s a service academy. Theese kids are going to graduate college and put their lives on line for a much greater cause than their own well being. I don’t think any other schools compare to them in that aspect.
Well put, Russell
But my point is that any of those baseline average replacements for Navy would do the exact same thing and play us like it’s the biggest game of the season. That’s why I hate starting the season off like we did with SDSU in 2008 or USF in 2011, you know those teams are going to empty the tank against us.
Yes.
In fact, Navy actually being a tougher program over the last 10+ years in my mind gives them a little bit more cause to keep on the schedule every year–although their dirtiness on the field and institutional effort to ‘game the system’ to gain an edge in football wipes a lot of that out. If they suck hard for the next 10 years I’d want them gone even more.
Plus, I call BS (to a degree) on the Notre Dame-Navy relationship.
There has never been anything formally agreed to in writing about keeping them on the schedule. Okay, fine both sides have said the relationship didn’t need one. But then you dig a little deeper…
One, we had been playing Navy for a decade and a half straight before WWII.
Two, many other schools (hundreds?) also faced the same struggles as Notre Dame during the war. Many of those schools welcomed Navy and other military trainings on their campuses, too. No one else agreed to play them every year for the rest of eternity.
Three, WWII was hard but I’m sure Notre Dame would’ve survived without the help. The cynic in me believes this point has been exaggerated tremendously through the years.
Four, the history suggests a more formal agreement (not in writing) was cemented by Father Hesburgh in the 1950’s nearly 30 years after the programs had already been playing each other every year. Since he was such an important figure the “promise” between the schools is largely attributed to him, and usually him only. He was 10 years old when the programs began playing each other every year.
Five–and this is the crux of my point–when FDM interviewed Hesburgh a few years back on the Navy rivalry posted on the old site he brought up a point several times. Notre Dame gets along SO WELL with all the admirals and Navy staff for these games.
THE ANNUAL RIVALRY IS A CHANCE FOR THE SCHOOLS TO WINE AND DINE EACH OTHER.
This is really why the series will never stop happening every year. It’s not because of a “gratitude” anymore. We’re talking about decades and decades of intertwined buddy-buddy relationships, shared jokes, and shared wine.
Now, if you’re looking at it through the lens of the schools having an appreciation for each other and in some ways believing their student bodies and schools together stand for something greater that’s fine. I’d agree, I just don’t think that deserves a game every single year any longer.
I’m just a little cynical about it because deep down the rivalry reminds me so much of the bowl game executives. There’s a lot of noise about the tradition and greatness of some bowl games but deep down the people running them exist to be catered and treated like princes. That’s kinda how Notre Dame and Navy treat each other.
That more than a little cynical, Eric. And I doubt that you only honor your word when there’s a formal agreement you’ve signed.
I don’t know if there’s a written formal agreement or not. Hesburgh’s word is good enough for me.
I’m saying “Hesburgh’s word” is kind of a syrup-filled fairy-tale of the football series and how things evolved over the years.
Alright Eric – what other syrup and fairy tales are we cynical about?
God, Country, Notre Dame?
Play Like a Champion?
Any others so I can keep a tally?
Next thing you’ll tell me is that Rudy was not a true to life movie and neither was the Knute Rockne, All American.
I’d also add, this is the same type of relationship that led to Stanford being on the schedule every year, too.
You can look at some of the other rivalries and when some sour stuff has happened we’ve definitely made it be known we weren’t happy. We’ve told Michigan to eat $@!# and taken a break. We stopped playing Miami because…the games were too hype and emotional. From a football standpoint only neither team should’ve been dropped (although I’m okay not playing Michigan that much).
Contrast with Stanford and Navy, where there’s been plenty of bad stuff on the field in recent years, and yet not a peep from either side about changes to scheduling. In fact, the Navy/ND relationship has never not been described as happy, happy joy, joy forever and Stanford has all the aspirational peer baggage.
It’s the administration and faculty love between Notre Dame, Navy, and Stanford that binds the football series that are played every year. Full stop.
All I’m saying is that these relationships maybe shouldn’t be driving something so important as Notre Dame’s football schedule. Especially since, over the long run both Navy and Stanford are below average programs at best. It just so happens that both are operating at historical highs right now but that won’t always last. I guarantee in 30 or 40 years my grand kids will think it’s stupid that we play both every year (if it’s still happening), especially Stanford.
OK Stimpy, pretty sure we weren’t complaining this much when we were owning them year in year out, longest winning streak etc etc.
At least in the late 90’s when I was in school, we hated playing them. They’ve long been peskier than anyone ever wanted, even when it was still a given that we’d win. You’d think we were just fine, then all of a sudden look up and Allen Rossum is making a game-saving tackle at the 10 yard line on a crazy last play and you’re like “oh…huh, I didn’t realize it was actually that close!….whew!”
I guess it comes down to this: if you think the whole “historical relationship” is BS then it allows you to buy into the “oh injuries” or “oh we don’t get credit if we win and get punished if we lose so hurts us competitively” stuff. If you but into the “historical relationship’ then those look like excuses, when in both cases the real problem is that they’re just damn annoying to play.
Many programs would be annoying if we played them every single year.
Some are annoying whenever we play them. (stares at Ann Arbor)
The streak only strengths my point about the relationship between the schools.
In 30 or 40 years our grandkids will be complaining about a lot of things. I doubt playing Stanford or Navy will be high on their list of grievances.
In 30 years our kids will be complaining that head coach Ian Book can’t match former head coach Tommy Rees’s recruiting
So, you question the relationship, okay. None of that necessitates ending the relationship. You want to call BS on that, I still call BS on the whole “oh so many injuries” and “oh, playing Navy every year hurts our competitiveness for the playoff.”
You want to end it because you don’t like it. That’s fine. I wish more people would just say that (like you are, at least) instead of coming up with every other reason under the sun. And I won’t waste any time trying to argue about the series history or value to you, because you’ve made up your mind. I also happen to like bowl games, and don’t really give a sh— that they don’t “mean” anything. Yes, executives and so on get to hobnob. Kids also get to go places like Hawaii or Florida or even the Bahamas these days and have a little fun. I like that not everything is focused on OMG PLAYOFFS and turned into the NFL. You don’t like executives using games as excuses to hob nob? Never hang out in the box seats of an NFL game, I’d suggest.
No, I don’t want to “end it” I don’t think it should be an annual game.
That’s fair–by that I don’t mean I agree per se, but I appreciate the clarification of your position on it.
There is no chance that Naval Academy students think Notre Dame stands for something greater. We’re just a school with a football team they like to beat.
And, for them, that’s fair!
Navy students? No, probably not. But I know the USNA leadership feels differently.
Personally a compelling argument for me would be “yeah, we owe a debt to the US NAVY, not the Naval Academy at Annapolis..let’s have cocktail parties with admirals, but eff the Academy.” As an ROTC grad, I’d be on board.
Also admirals all look like they should be serving cocktails in their whites anyway.
That’s another interesting angle too.
ABSINTHE PARTY!!!
While singing sea shanties.
“because 07 and 09 and 10 and 16 never happened ♪♪”
“….’cause ’07 ne’er occurred!”
FWIW I’ve always felt we made too much of a big deal about their “NAVY-ness.” I’ve complained before about how every time Navy is on TV the announcers slobber all over themselves to talk up what fine, upstanding young men going off to defend our nation!!!! these brave kids are. Having been there and done that, I find it eye-rolling because A. yes, these kids made a choice to follow that career path…while getting free education and a guaranteed job out of the deal, B. very rarely is anyone on TV talking up ROTC cadets or mids despite the fact that upon graduation we all do the same damn things, C. ain’t none of them done anything yet but choose to go to a school where they can’t have social lives, and D. the best academy grads I ever worked with, you wouldn’t know they were academy grads, and the worst ones took every opportunity to shove their ring in your face and remind you they went to the Academy. For the most part this applies not just to Navy, but to West Point and AFA as well, though I admit I’m intellectually inconsistent because I like to see Army beat up on Navy and take Oklahoma to the wire (mostly because they were bad for so long).
TL;DR: Yes, they’re not normal college students, but the fawning worship they get is a bit much, and our RESPECK FOR THE TROOOPS shouldn’t ever prevent us from pounding the ever-living crap out of them from kickoff to 00:00.
If there’s one school we should be playing, I think that would be Stanford. Their athletic programs are excellent and their academics are second to none. Is this not the goal of Notre Dame and it’s athletic programs(Top notch student/athletes) ? Aren’t these two schools the flagship institutions for this goal ? I think it is only natural that they compete in as many sports as possible.
77-13, mark it!
31-20
I think you have this one right E. Comfortable but unsatisfying win. I would really like us to be able to run the ball well here, but I think the passing game will be so wide open that Ian will sling it more than he needs to.
This is probably the worst Navy team in the last 15 years but they did beat a Memphis team with a pulse. I think Memphis had 4 turnovers, so I hope Book plays it close to the jacket.
I am so confident that we win this that I put a few sheckles on the ND moneyline at -1800 (which is actually very good odds for a 24 point favorite). No I don’t have a problem. Yes, instant 6% interest is too good to pass up. Gulp.